VVC August 2008 Public Meeting

[Lono676767]

Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC)
Public Meeting – August 9, 2008
http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html
Attendees (22):

Acrophobic Pixie – Black Swan Haven (BSH)
Anshar – House Lost Haven
Camazotz – Sanguinox (NOX) Message Board
Craze – Smoke & Mirrors (Yuku) Message Board
Gabriel – House Lost Haven
Khan – The Dark Nations & Independent Representative
Lady CG – Smoke & Mirrors Messages Board(s) & Vampire Library (SL)
Lono – PsychicVampire.org
Merticus – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC
Michelle Belanger – House Kheperu & MichelleBelanger.com
Mike Future – Vampire Community Message Board (VCMB)
NyteMuse – House Rosa
Ravena – House Lost Haven
RavenHarte – Clann Caladvwlch
Reija – Independent Representative
SapphoWolf – House Maidenfear
sarasvati – Echoes of Night & VCMB
Sovereign – Independent Representative
SphynxCatVP – SphynxCatVP Real Vampires Support Site
Sylvere ap Leanan – Real Vampires Community Alliance (RVCA)
Vyrdolak – By Light Unseen
Zilchy – Independent Representative

Discussion Agenda:

I.  Meeting Info & Introductions

Welcome to the second public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008.  If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted.  The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.

Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule).  Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.

Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed.  Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!

II.  Background & Introduction

VVC was founded January 2006.

The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006

Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
   
The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.

For more information please visit our web site at:  http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html

We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.

III.  Discussion

As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community.  Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question.  All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response.  Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.

a.  Let’s start the evening with these questions:  Given the independent and often antisocial nature of many vampires, do you feel the vampire community can ever achieve a level of cohesive functionality?  At what point does our diversity cease being our greatest strength and become our greatest liability?  Does the present state of our “community” hamper the growth of the individual by only encouraging support or has enough effort been made to motivate vampires to become self-reliant as they grow in the understanding of their own personal vampirism?

b.  The vampire community has languished for years due in no small part to individuals who sought attention, albeit positive or negative for the satisfaction of themselves rather than for the benefit of the community (we’re not here to name anyone in particular).  As leaders of the vampire community (the owners and operators of the major web sites, forums, groups, and discussion lists), how do you characterize your responsibility to this community without falling victim to narcissism, excessive ego, or a desire to achieve influence over others?  How do you distinguish the community decisions you make as transcendent of mere personal aspirations while remaining cognizant of your own wants or needs?  How important is the factor of respect by your fellow vampires to what you do and how you define yourself?

c.  The following question involves a project the VVC is considering regarding the translation of important vampirism / vampire community written or printed materials into languages other than English.  If you had to choose a handful (5 or so) documents, articles, or other bodies of work that represent the fundamental ideals of the vampire community to translate into foreign languages (French, Spanish, German, Russian, etc.), which would these be and why?  Aside from translations, what steps are you personally taking to reach out to vampires in other countries and what additional measures could be explored by the community as a whole?

d.  Everyone take a moment to share your opinion on a project the VVC has the opportunity to spearhead.  There are many in this community who seek specific guidance for difficult situations or questions that may not always be answered via message boards or through the insight of one particular individual in an e-mail.  Still other members would like the ability to be connected with others in the community in real-time or have at their disposal a collective resource for multiple viewpoints.  To this end, on a trial basis let’s establish a bi-monthly online VVC hosted chat advertised to the major forums and groups of the community.  At these chats, members will be able to ask their questions in a moderated format and request additional support if needed by e-mail or other means of follow-up.  What are your thoughts or opinions on this concept?  How should such be implemented?

e.  Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion?

IV.  Business Reminders


   <Merticus>   <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>>
   <Merticus>   Voices of the Vampire Community
   <Merticus>   Public Meeting – August 9, 2008
   <Merticus>   Discussion Agenda:
   <Merticus>   I.  Meeting Info & Introductions
   <Merticus>   Welcome to the second public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008.  If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted.  The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
   <Merticus>   Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule).  Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
   <Merticus>   Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed.  Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
   <Merticus>   II.  Background & Introduction
   <Merticus>   VVC was founded January 2006
   <Merticus>   The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
   <Merticus>   Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
   <Merticus>   The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
   <Merticus>   For more information please visit our web site at:  http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html
   <Merticus>   We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
   <Merticus>   III.  Discussion
   <Merticus>   As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community.  Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question.  All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response.  Just as a reminder, conversation is
   <Merticus>   to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
   <Merticus>   Ready to begin with the questions?
   <LadyCG>   aye
   <AcrophobicPixie>   go right ahead
   *   SapphoWolf nods
   <Vyrdolak>   yep
   <CrazeDS>   hit it
   <NyteMuse>   aye
   <Sylvere>   oi
   *   Lono676767 nods
   <Merticus>   a.  Let’s start the evening with these questions:  Given the independent and often antisocial nature of many vampires, do you feel the vampire community can ever achieve a level of cohesive functionality?  At what point does our diversity cease being our greatest strength and become our greatest liability?  Does the present state of our “community” hamper the growth of the individual by only encouraging support or has enough effort
   <Merticus>   been made to motivate vampires to become self-reliant as they grow in the understanding of their own personal vampirism?
   <Merticus>   a.  SphynxCatVP:  Depends on whether people can get off their toosh.  If things continue as they are today, then no. If people suddenly get a clue and realize that people CAN work together without having to feel self-important to the exclusion of all others, then yes.
   <CrazeDS>   If we can stop letting the endless drama and rumors without evidence get in our way, then I don't see why not.
   <LadyCG>   Actually, I do...or at least as much functionality as the Pagan community does. It doesn’t really take us all to agree on everything to accomplish that. It just takes us to accept that we're all Vampires and that we're all in this together for good or ill.
   <LadyCG>   We don't have to GO along... we really just have to GET along and learn to agree to disagree, once in a while. In reality a good many of us DO get along and over the past couple of years I see fewer board wars and more people talking and cross posting. It’s all a good sign. Maybe we haven't actually stopped to look at the good changes we are seeing because we're always so tied up in knots looking at all the problems.
   <LadyCG>   As for growth, I have to say that most of us awakened without help at all, and I think as a whole there is a LOT of help and info out there for newly awakening vampires. I don't know that the state of the community as a whole matters as much as insuring we each do our part in supporting our Vamplings and new vampires. Vampires continue to awaken and develop with no help at all. I know I did, long before communities ever existed. As long as we’re
   <LadyCG>   offering support; then I think the state of the community matters a lot less.
   *   NyteMuse agrees with Sphynx
   <Lono676767>   agrees with both Sphynx and CG
   <Vyrdolak>   These questions are problematical for me because I don't agree with their basic premises. I'm unconvinced that vampires are any more "antisocial" than members of any eccentric special-interest group, such as science-fiction fans, Pagans, dog fanciers or model train hobbyists. There is obviously a very strong urge among vampires to long for, and look for, others of like mind, to stay in online venues where they feel comfortable and to join or form groups in real life.
   <Vyrdolak>   Those aren't the behavior patterns of "antisocial" people. As far as "independence" goes, any person who identifies with a culturally disparaged sub-group and then acts on that identification is independent-minded by definition. That alone doesn't preclude the formation of a strong community by such people.  Given this, I think vampires can form a community just as cohesive and functional as, say, science-fiction fans who annually put on conventions for 2000 people. Vampires just have to decide that they really want to do that.
   <Vyrdolak>   I also disagree with the premise of the "diversity" question, because I'm not convinced that vampires are "diverse." I think they just choose to see themselves that way by focusing on unreal and superficial "differences." It's our self-perception, not real "diversity" that is creating such divisions. The vampire community is a lot like that grade school class, in the famous experiment, whose teacher gave them an object lesson in prejudice by dividing them by eye color and telling one group they were superior to the other.
   <Vyrdolak>   I think the vampire community's "teachers" in this regard are identifiable persons (such as Amy Krieytaz) whose influence remains profound even though they themselves are long gone. I think the community hampers its own growth by focusing on "support." I don't think it has enough impact on individuals to influence them that strongly, outside of the most highly structured and authoritarian of the offline groups (and those only affect a tiny minority of vampiric people). The main reason for the community to move beyond the "support group" model is so the community itself can evolve as an entity, not because that model is a material hindrance to the members.
   <Sylvere>   Yes, it’s possible but only if a lot of major changes happen.  Among these are: Less tolerance of stupidity (meaning we should entertain enough skepticism to challenge improbable ideas), false hierarchies not based on merit, and those who seek to live in a fantasy realm of “Thee Powah of teh UberVampyre”, and more support for those who are working to bridge the gap between our community and the general public.
   <M_Belanger>   If we continue to allow our differences to divide us, no. At the moment, there are too many people involved in the community who allow ideological differences to get in the way of productive communication and cooperation.
   <Sylvere>   We must also get past the knee-jerk reaction of “unity = bad” and recognize that unity doesn’t necessarily equal a loss of diversity.
   <Camazotz>   *agrees with Michelle*
   <Merticus>   I think this will largely depend on the degree of cohesiveness we are willing to acknowledge as evidence of productive organization or group effort.  Many of us need to reevaluate our intolerance of others; finding common ground when possible or at the very least listening to what each of us has to say.  On the other hand, while some may view it politically correct to be accepting of all ideas, factions, groups, and individuals within
   <Merticus>   this community, I feel if we are to ever achieve the goals we establish for ourselves certain standards of what we’re willing to accept as plausible descriptors of vampirism or as acceptable behaviors need to be at the very least a component of multi-forum/group/etc. discussion. 
   <Merticus>   While it is true most of us tend to be individualistic and sometimes distrustful of any high level of structure, it is not to say that we are unable to work together as an effective group albeit in minor or serious matters.  This community can provide support while at the same time fostering growth of the individual on multiple levels (not just coping with vampirism) and I honestly think the latter is sometimes lost along the way.
   <NyteMuse>   Agreed.  The other communities managed to rally behind some common thing.  The vampire community needs to focus more on that and less on the differences.
   <SapphoWolf>   Cohesive functionality can be achieved, but I think it's a matter of finding common ground in the things we all do not stand for rather than to set forth a set of rigid guidelines.
   <Sylvere>   I think we’ve *already* reached the point where our diversity is a liability.  We cannot or will not so much as agree on a commonly accepted definition of the word “vampire” or a written statement of ethics that is based on how we really live rather than a role-playing game.  Until that happens we will never achieve unity in any meaningful way.
   <Camazotz>   I think we need to start looking to areas where we can agree, rather than getting bogged down on the same few topics over and over.
   <RavenHarte>   Perhaps the point is not unity, but union... Unity implies a single purpose.
   <Sylvere>   The growth of individuals is hampered by having no solid foundation from which to begin.  “Seek Your Own Truth” is a fine idea *but* without a starting point, all it accomplishes is leaving the seeker to flounder aimlessly.  We also need to be willing to guide those with less experience to discover answers by providing concrete feedback rather than telling them to figure things out for themselves and leaving it at that.
   <CrazeDS>   There are always going to be differences of opinion, of course, but I think we need to STOP letting those differences of opinion cause huge gaps in relationships.
   <SapphoWolf>   Exactly RavenHarte
   <AncientKhan>   This will work when we stop trying to make someone's views on the community more right than another, and allow people to be themselves, while instituting a bit of common sense.
   <sarasvati>   I think "cohesive functionality" is a really good term, and achievable... complete agreement and cuddly feelings for all? No, but we can, I think all work together on the basic points available.
   <M_Belanger>   I think the large number of GenX-aged individuals at "elder" levels of the community might be a contributing factor to our problem. There is a level of fatalism and distrust of authority -- even their own -- inherent in that generation because of cultural & temporal influences.
   <SapphoWolf>   It's a union of independents.
   <M_Belanger>   It keeps shooting us in the foot.
   <Lono676767>   It does seem that we have a tendency to focus on our differences, especially in the past, and we need to focus on our strengths and commonalities if the community is to continue and grow.
   <RavenHarte>   I agree Khan and sarasvati.
   <M_Belanger>   You know, some days these discussions we have remind me of what I read about the early United States -- before they were really States.
   <SapphoWolf>   Maybe we need to look at a more balanced and equal playing field for the community and do away with things like elders... I don't know...
   <Anshar>   lol @ the Articles of Confederation
   <RavenHarte>   That’s why I prefer Collective to Community...
   <M_Belanger>   Republic vs. a Federation, Democracy vs a Union of independent mini-nations...
   <Gabrielx>   So my question is, as khan stated stop trying to make someone's views more right than another. Then how is it that we can sit and talk about individuals per media having a bad impact on the community. Wouldn't any impact just be their own personal diversity and we'd have to take up the position of live with it rather then a position of what are we going to do about it?
   <sarasvati>   I think we have made a great effort to help people be self-reliant. Part of this, I think, is evidenced by the large number of "newbies" that drift through and the relatively small number of "regulars" the Regs stick around to help teach and support, while they encourage the "newbs" to learn, but to learn to take care of themselves, not be taken care of.
   <Merticus>   Foundations are crucial to any kind of development.
   <Anshar>   Merticus: What kind of foundations are you speaking of?  Can you be more specific?
   <NyteMuse>   Well, but the question is, CAN we focus on the basic points?  I think it important to focus on additive definitions, rather than subtractive, which some sites and individuals seem to have a problem with.
   <Merticus>   Primarily that of communicating as we are doing now in reference to Michelle's comment.  We represent diverse viewpoints but are temporarily placing that aside... our differences if you will, to accomplish something... even if questioning ourselves is the only apparent outcome.
   <SapphoWolf>   I think the individuals will grow and flourish in spite of the community...
   <Reija>   I agree SapphoWolf
   <LadyCG>   Good point Gabriel
   <M_Belanger>   I've been working closely with a group of Pagans to try to see how they've handled these issues -- the Pagan community (as a social entity, not a religion) has already lived through much of the process we are currently debating for ourselves
   <Camazotz>   True SapphoWolf… but they do need help.
   <Mike_Future>   The biggest problem is defining "vampire". The way I see now, everyone has the rightful claim to the word as much as we do.
   <Reija>   The community can't seem to agree which direction to take and where to begin, but a truly strong-minded individual will take bits from here and there and will thrive and grow.
   <Lono676767>   lol... If we can’t define vampire.....
   <SapphoWolf>   I've worked with Pagan groups as well... Michelle is right on
   <Gabrielx>   Belanger:  Any helpful findings in that?
   <RavenHarte>   Exactly Michelle, it’s why I wanted to be part of this group.
   <M_Belanger>   I know there are several others present here who have solid experience with the Pagan community.
   <Camazotz>   Well if we can't define vampire, what say we move on with what we CAN do and see what comes out in the mix?
   <CrazeDS>   We won't be able to. There are too many people, with too many definitions, all of whom disagree and clash.
   <Sovereign>   Agrees with Craze
   <AcrophobicPixie>   But Lono, we can't really define it as just one thing since there's so many types and views upon the word.
   <SapphoWolf>   Cama: If you don't recognize your own vampirism in the first place, I doubt there's any community on earth that can help.
   <Mike_Future>   I agree Cama
   <Lono676767>   I agree Cama
   <M_Belanger>   There's a lot to be learned from them -- if we can get over that knee-jerk reaction of "but we're NOT a religion!!!"
   <M_Belanger>   But those clashes exist among Pagans as well. There's got to be a model from which we can work.
   <SapphoWolf>   Most of the Pagans I know anymore don't view it as a religion anyway.
   <CrazeDS>   Places like the ToV and the Vampire Church make that reaction understandable, even if it shouldn't be as harsh.
   <Camazotz>   Agreed SapphoWolf, but I think people need to be shown more help than just articles - as useful as they can be as a starting point. I had help, I'm grateful for it.
   <M_Belanger>   True enough.
   <RavenHarte>   The Pagan community still has its clashes, for sure, still has its "I'm better than you." attitudes.
   <RavenHarte>   We just learned that we weren’t getting anywhere resisting each other.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   There's clashes within all religions, though, between the sects.
   <Mike_Future>   My point was that the word has such a huge range of definition, we have to be more lax when it comes to lifestylers and the bunch.
   <Merticus>   How lax do you propose we make such a definition?
   <M_Belanger>   But we're at that phase right now that was, what 1996?  The Witchvox, "Which Witch is Witch" debate.
   <NyteMuse>   Yeah, and clashes even in the same tradition between traditionalists and progressives *snerk*
   <Anshar>   Michelle: Wow! I remember that!
   <Reija>   Sad that I remember that too.
   <RavenHarte>   OOoh yeah the "Witch Wars" of the 90’s.
   <Anshar>   An apt metaphor.
   <Vyrdolak>   1996! 1986! 1976!  They're still arguing about it.
   <M_Belanger>   Only for us it's "Lifestyler vs. Vampire vs. Vampyre vs. Sanguinarian vs Psi-vamp ..." ad nauseum.
   <Camazotz>   Unless you're someone actively involved in teaching and you need to decide where you time is best spent, does it matter?
   <Sylvere>   I disagree with being more lax with the lifestylers.
   <CrazeDS>   But much like the word "Witch", "Vampire" means different things to each of us in this room. We accept ourselves, of course, but when we try and define ourselves to someone else, we get someone coming in with a different definition.
   <CrazeDS>   and that's where the arguments and the bad blood (no pun intended) start.
   <LadyCG>   Give me another month with the thread I have on Vampire Definition on my S&M DARK board… Maybe I'll have something worth bringing to the next meeting.
   <SapphoWolf>   My parents were part of the Wiccamania of the 1970's...they were arguing over it then.
   <AncientKhan>   I think the definition is: One who practices vampyrism, and let folks decide for themselves what the hell that means without us having to drive the short bus...
   <M_Belanger>   Yeah, but there's been some abatement to it.  So how'd they do it?  Just apathy?
   <Camazotz>   I know those I teach individually... their needs, what I can help them with... you can't take everyone as being the same, even if we HAD a clear cut definition.
   *   NyteMuse shudders at the circular definition
   <Anshar>   So maybe that's the root of it all, our prejudices. I'm sure most of us here have had issues with being mistaken for lifestylers by outsiders, depending on our self-representation. Any ideas on bridging that gap?
   <Vyrdolak>   Attenuation, Michelle
   <Merticus>   Well personally I think we are trying to be accepting by the inclusion of lifestylers or another else outside the "typical" sang/psi/hybrid etc. paradigm of vampires - are we discussing "who is a vampire" or "what constitutes vampirism" - they are two different questions.
   <Sylvere>   Just say "no" to tautology.
   <M_Belanger>   I usually default to "someone who, for one reason or another, identifies on a personal level with the figure of the vampire" -- which is more or less what Khan just said.
   <RavenHarte>   I still tell people who ask me a vampyre is someone who cannot maintain energy balance and therefore must obtain this energy from other sources.
   <SapphoWolf>   For me, a vampire understands the power of living energy and has learned to manipulate that energy to their own ends.  I don't expect anyone else to adopt it.
   <Gabrielx>   I find it amusing the biggest thing I run into with gatherings and events is if an individual feels left out or something isn't proper to them it's a huff and puff and "there aren't Real (insert otherkin/vampire/pagan here)”.
   <Gabrielx>   I guess that goes back to a “pay attention to me” type mentality though.
   <Lono676767>   My definition usually defaults to "need".
   <RavenHarte>   Truth be told, most people don’t ask for more explanation than that unless they already know a sang or psi.
   <Camazotz>   For me the basic definition is "need".
   <CrazeDS>   I think Anshar, that lifestylers bring something important to the community, and while we shouldn't "run them out on the rails", they should acknowledge that they're lifestylers, and not actual vamps.
   <LadyCG>   I agree with that Craze.
   <LadyCG>   Besides, we can get donors from the lifestyler community.
   <NyteMuse>   Y'know, I actually do SORT of include lifestylers when educating others about the community... I don't necessarily say "Oh yeah, these guys are vampires too", but it's hard to inclusively talk about the VC without at least mentioning them, as that's what many outsiders have been most exposed to.
   <LadyCG>   *laughs* to me being a vampire has nothing to do with energy, being Sang.
   <SapphoWolf>   I figure who am I to tell someone they are or are not a vampire?
   <M_Belanger>   Though someone had raised the question, for that blanketing definition -- what then about the self-proclaimed vampires who murder?
   <Mike_Future>   I agree SapphoWolf
   <SapphoWolf>   What about the energy in the blood?
   <AncientKhan>   Or the chemicals in the blood.  Everything isn't about energy...
   <Mike_Future>   We can distinguish ourselves, however.
   <M_Belanger>   Well, there is point where some lifestylers end up adopting the vampire not just as fashion but also as a magickal identity.
   <Anshar>   Gabriel:  That's because for some people an interest in the occult is based on a "phase" that people go through in later adolescence where they want to veer away from the standards of their normal lifestyle. This causes a large influx of people into the Pagan/Vampire/and Otherkin communities that are there simply to be different.
   <CrazeDS>   Michelle: They may be vampires, who knows. We certainly don't... but they're also criminals, and we should endeavor to show that we aren't them. That they are in the minority.
   <NyteMuse>   I agree with Michelle... it seems like there isn't nearly as high an incidence in the pagan or homosexual communities of people claiming to be part of it and then bringing bad publicity.
   <M_Belanger>   I agree wholeheartedly, Craze.
   <sarasvati>   *chuckle* Way to be practical, CG... though I was thinking the same thing.
   <NyteMuse>   The worst I hear about the Pagans is either media-spin, or Satanists, which many Pagans are quick to denounce.
   <SapphoWolf>   There's an excellent case in point.  From my point of view, there's nothing that isn't energy.
   <Mike_Future>   I've seen it said numerous times that we use the V word because it is what most closely matches our "conditions".
   <Anshar>   These people end up causing communication problems for the community and ultimately are partially responsible for some of the world at large taking us seriously.
   <Reija>   As for Michelle's point about the self-proclaimed vampires who go around killing people... to me they seem to be sort of in that same group as the self-proclaimed messiahs who lead cults... SOME people believe them, MOST people think they're nuts, but they give a whole LOT of people a bad name.
   *   NyteMuse agrees with Mike
   <CrazeDS>   Mike: I once heard the word "pranist" from a vamp who refuses to use the word vampire because of all its associations.
   <Mike_Future>   I've also heard that Craze.
   <Camazotz>   Ultimately I don't like the term "vampire" purely because it forces us into having to define it to separate from the literary/mythological.
   *   Lono676767 agrees with Reija
   <NyteMuse>   Interesting point, Reija... I have to wonder if some of the VC reactions to those people are unnecessary.
   <Merticus>   Which does everyone care more about... how we are defined and perceived outside of the culture or how we define ourselves internally and come to know one another?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Craze, my brother used to do that.
   <SapphoWolf>   Has there ever been a movement to adopt a word that isn't so loaded?
   <Sovereign>   Agrees with Anshar
   <M_Belanger>   To be fair, if you ask 80% of HK (House Kheperu), most refuse to use the V-word.
   <M_Belanger>   The Warriors especially hate it.
   <M_Belanger>   And leech is pretty demeaning.
   <M_Belanger>   So is parasite.
   <NyteMuse>   Yeah... and parasite covers it even less than vampires.
   <Anshar>   The word "parasite" is only demeaning if you're self important.
   <Camazotz>   Yeah, I used to be a moderator on pranism.net.
   <CrazeDS>   Cama:  It's actually Inky who I heard it from, LOL
   <Anshar>   Mike:  But, you have to agree that while the word "leech" might work equally well it doesn't have the sexy Hollywood veneer that many people crave.
   <NyteMuse>   Cama, the same happened with "witch" but a lot of people use it.
   <LadyCG>   I don't think people who claim to be vampires and kill are any different than someone who claims to be religious and kills.  There are loonies in every group and every culture and religion.
   *   Mike_Future agrees with Anshar
   <RavenHarte>   Khan... LOL to me it’s ALL about energy, considering we are what 99.9% energy anyway right   Food = energy whether it’s a cheeseburger, blood or psi energy.
   <Lono676767>   True RavenHarte... and life feeds on life...
   <sarasvati>   There could be many ways to approach it... "Yes, there are some people who are/think they are vampires that commit violent, even homicidal crimes... not all of us are like that any more than all white people are like Jeffery Dahmer"
   <AncientKhan>   I say screw the outside perspective until we unfuck ourselves.
   <Mike_Future>   My point is, as long as we continue to use the V word, we will have to adapt to all that it attracts into this community.
   <Ravena_>   The problem with inventing a word to describe it is that people would have issues communicating.
   <SapphoWolf>   The Hopi Indians have a word for us... “powaqi”.
   <Gabrielx>   Well here's a question these people going around killing others and proclaiming to be apart of our community... Again every community has psycho paths and some who are bad, but does that give us an immediate right to say "they aren't vampires" because they slaughtered 20 people or because they are crazy?  Wouldn't it be more to the point of saying we don't condone these actions instead?
   <Gabrielx>   Seems we always go to the "they AREN'T this" because they did something wrong.
   *   Anshar nods to Gabriel
   <Anshar>   Yea, they may very well be vampires, the point is that they're crazy also.
   <M_Belanger>   I don't know if there is an answer for this debate, and it's taken us away from the initial question: In the absence of a cohesive definition, do we have the wherewithal to function as a whole & healthy community?
   <NyteMuse>   Right, Gabriel.  Which touches back on my earlier point. Additive distinctions instead of subtractive.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Agreed.  There's no proof that they are or aren’t what they claim to be, Gabriel.
   <AncientKhan>   We can function when we recognize the tie that binds us.
   <Anshar>   Michelle: I think it's not the definition that's the problem.
   <Lono676767>   True Mike, however many pagans know us as vampires, and some send un-awakened or newly awakened in our direction... if we changed the name, or attempted to, newbies wouldn’t know where to search.
   <Mike_Future>   There’s no proof for any of this.
   <LadyCG>   I think if we settle our own affairs in our communities without worrying about what the outside world sees, what the outside world sees will look after itself.
   <Camazotz>   I think if egos and the "my way or the highway" attitudes of some can be put aside, then certainly we can.
   <SapphoWolf>   The wherewithal is there, though it might be like pulling teeth to get to it.
   <NyteMuse>   In my experience, a community really needs a common rallying point
   <CrazeDS>   Michelle: Yes, we do. Most of the non-cohesiveness in the community comes from drama and rumors that are believed without being confirmed.
   <CrazeDS>   If we can stop doing that, it's a start.
   <Anshar>   Michelle: I think the definition is our mental band aid for the underlying problem.
   <NyteMuse>   If it's not going to be the definition, maybe something else...
   <Merticus>   Participation on the fringes of this community without association with the core of the community - the social interaction on message boards, groups, chats, etc. does not necessarily constitute those persons as being part of the "community".
   <Merticus>   Everyone who identifies themselves or with the word "vampire" does not make them part of a "community" in and of itself.
   <M_Belanger>   Or are we really predators at heart, and therefore more inclined to work together only when that cooperation functions expressly for our own benefit, always looking out for our own self-interests at heart and willing to abandon any semblance of communal interaction the moment it becomes inconvenient?
   <Gabrielx>   Belanger: To that question, yes I think we can function.
   <SapphoWolf>   Don't anyone take this the wrong way, but I feel that we have a healthy community right here.
   <M_Belanger>   SapphoWolf -- how could that be taken the wrong way.  Heck, it's even true.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Like the pack mentality?
   <Anshar>   Michelle: that would be HUMAN nature, not just predatory nature, lol.
   <Mike_Future>   Merticus, doesn't participation on our message boards make any and all part of the community?
   <NyteMuse>   Merticus: Right, and not everyone who IDs as "pagan" is part of the Pagan community.
   <sarasvati>   I think the initial question does go back to our prejudices... if in my research, I found something that disproved my favorite hypothesis and supported another persons, would I tell them? Even if I didn't agree?  If we are to be that cohesive group, the answer would have to be yes. I may not like the result, but it is an answer, a result, and a step for the whole.
   <NyteMuse>   Mike: I'd argue that.
   <Reija>   Exactly, Merticus. That's like people who identify as being "Native American"... doesn't make them a tribe member.
   <CrazeDS>   People, as a rule, look out for themselves first.  Being people, we are, of course, not exempt.
   <AncientKhan>   I think we're more a community in person.
   <LadyCG>   NyteMuse... you're right about the rallying point... for example... if the governments of the World outlawed vampirism as a culture I bet we'd bond like crazy.. ALL of us.
   <Merticus>   Yes, but whom among that list of individual "vampire" murderers do you personally know who have participated in such a manner?
   <Merticus>   Who among us have committed crimes against our own or society that are an active part of our "community" - and I'm not referencing drama or hearsay?
   <Mike_Future>   I think the major point is, anyone can claim to be part of the vamp community. We just have to work harder to distinguish ourselves.
   <Anshar>   So, maybe there needs to be a distinction between self-identification and community. *shrugs*  Still don't know if that solves the underlying problem. I still think that the "definition" is the issue that's masking the real issue.
   <AncientKhan>   People distinguish themselves by action, not words.
   <sarasvati>   Exactly, Khan.
   <SapphoWolf>   Each of us is an ambassador of the community... something like that?
   <Anshar>   Mike: Isn't that the attitude that causes such the ruckus in the first place?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Khan, sometimes action IS words, though.
   <Camazotz>   We shouldn't forget the offline community as well.
   <Camazotz>   Which is much more a "community" in many ways.
   <Lono676767>   Same with a few people interviewed on TV, that can’t be found identifying with any other part of the community except for TV.
   <CrazeDS>   If you want to be technical, one post on one board makes you part of a community.
   <AncientKhan>   How are words action, if we can't follow up with an example, Pixie?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   The act of saying them, writing them, etc. can be action at times. They can be a rallying point for others to look to.
   <Mike_Future>   Anshar : If we want to have a more cohesive community, we need an identity.
   <M_Belanger>   The rallying point idea is fairly crucial, I believe. What goals do we have in common, that we could be working toward as a community that can inspire us to cooperate?
   <SapphoWolf>   Hey, I live with 30 other vampires... the offline community is quite healthy.
   <Merticus>   Yes, often the offline community is far more entrenched than online.
   <CrazeDS>   bah, I have nothing to do with the vamps in my area.
   <CrazeDS>   Literally, NOTHING
   <LadyCG>   Craze you live in NYC... It’s understandable.
   <Ravena_>   Am I correct in assuming this whole conversation is to come up with a definition for vampire or some other word everyone agrees upon?
   <Sylvere>   If we look to other "communities" we more closely resemble the BDSM "community"...i.e. there's no such thing.
   <M_Belanger>   I don't see us banding together in order to start celebrating Vamp Pride Day any time soon. Or trying to lobby the government to allow ankhs (or whatever) on our tombstones...
   <Sylvere>   There are people who are kinky, but there's no real community to speak of.
   <Camazotz>   "The pen's mightier than the sword" Pixie?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   *nod nod* Cama
   <Anshar>   Ravena:  The conversation is based on whether the self-identification and definition of vampirism is what's standing as a roadblock to our cohesiveness as a community.
   <Merticus>   Ravena:  No, not the original purpose is more can we as "vampires" function together.
   <NyteMuse>   Actually, Sylvere's kind of right... there are local BDSM groups, but little to no global or online community aside from "You're kinky?  Me too"
   <Ravena_>   Do governments not allow ankhs?  I'd say if you paid the company who makes the stones they don't care what you put on there.
   <Sylvere>   And a large number of kinkster will argue that there is no BDSM community, never has been, and never will be.
   <Mike_Future>   I think by educating newbies as to the reality of our conditions, we have been taking proper steps for cohesiveness.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Military graves don't allow them yet, Ravena.
   <AncientKhan>   We've lost sight of why we're here, folks...
   <AncientKhan>   We're here because we can talk to each other instead of anyone in the mainstream, because we understand ourselves better than they do. That's our tie that binds.
   <SapphoWolf>   I think Khan is spot on there.
   *   Anshar passes Khan the peace pipe.
   <Sylvere>   I think that might be true of us as well.
   <Vyrdolak>   The question with Wiccan symbols was military tombstones only.
   <M_Belanger>   I don't know about that on the BDSM community, Sylvere -- there are so many conventions and classes and things, TNG groups, MUNCHES.
   <M_Belanger>   There's cohesion there.
   <Sylvere>   Oh, trust me Michelle, they exist.
   <Camazotz>   What do people consider as "cohesion"?
   <sarasvati>   I think, and I'll have to go back to the religion idea, but only as analogy.. .the definition is going to be very very hard... think of Christianity... Protestants, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopals, etc... each have a different definition, however each also identify as "Christian"... we each, in each of our groups, have a different definition as well.
   <sarasvati>   But we all still consider ourselves vampires.
   <Mike_Future>   Yes, we have strayed from the original question.
   <Sylvere>   Go peruse the message boards on CollarMe.
   <Sylvere>   And the TNGs, munches, etc. are *local* not really as             widespread as we pretend the VC is.
   <Camazotz>   pretend?
   <M_Belanger>   But, most of my kinky friends are *on* CollarMe, it's a community resource, a place to meet one another. It's more organized than it looks.
   <M_Belanger>   But you know that there's likely to be a MUNCH somewhere nearby or a TNG.  That is my point.
   <Sylvere>   I'll debate that with you Michelle and give you links to threads but I don't think this is the place for it.
   <Merticus>   What are the benefits to the vampire community being cohesive in the first place... what does everyone stand to gain?
   <M_Belanger>   A certain amount of mutual cooperation to host/create/run sites, events, resources.
   <Ravena_>   I kind of think I have better things to worry about than whether or not they let me put an ankh on my grave.
   <RavenHarte>   THAT is the real question Merticus. You CANNOT build a foundation of anything until you answer that.
   <Mike_Future>   Ok, then I pose this question. How do we exclude the people who are tarnishing our image?
   <CrazeDS>   Mike: We can't really.
   <Ravena_>   We can't.
   <Anshar>   Mike:  Maybe the answer is we DON'T.
   <Mike_Future>   Exactly
   <SapphoWolf>   We shoot them down one at a time?
   <Vyrdolak>   How do we exclude anyone when there is no formality to "including" anyone?
   <LadyCG>   Merticus:  I have kids and a grandchild who are vampires.  I want to see cohesion because I want this to be a community THEY can be proud to say they belong to.  I want them to have the support that I never had.
   <CrazeDS>   There are always going to be people who go out and do bad things and make us look bad.
   <NyteMuse>   I don't think we can exclude... all we can do is differentiate.
   <AncientKhan>   By not giving them the attention they desire. Let's call a spade a spade. They want to be noticed.  I say we don't give it to them.
   <M_Belanger>   I think the best we can do is to make statements when appropriate.
   <Anshar>   NyteMuse: Bingo.
   <CrazeDS>   The only things we can really do is make a united showing of us not being them.
   *   NyteMuse agrees with Khan
   <Mike_Future>   Ok, at least we all agree on that.  I think.
   <Merticus>   It's not a matter of exclusion more than it is a matter of not choosing to acknowledge or play lip service to such individuals or foster our own boards/groups/etc. for such to thrive.
   <SapphoWolf>   I agree.  No more attention.
   <RavenHarte>   No community has a "formal inclusion".
   <Mike_Future>   Very good point Merticus.
   <CrazeDS>   I half agree. I think it should be more selective attention.
   <Vyrdolak>   But often our attention isn't what the problem people want.
   <Vyrdolak>   and they're getting plenty of attention from elsewhere--what then?
   <CrazeDS>   The more dangerous individuals should be warned against.
   <Reija>   And the more fuss you raise about excluding someone, the more attention they get from it.
   <sarasvati>   1.)  The biggest benefits are two fold: Support and knowledge... maybe three if we count research. An isolated group of one idea is not a sounding board for helping everyone that comes through. We have to know who is out there in order to direct "newbies" to the point of best support for that individual.
   <Reija>   "i don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right"
   <Mike_Future>   Sarasvati, I think we are doing that.
   <SapphoWolf>   How can we determine who is a danger, then?  Previous experience?
   <sarasvati>   2.)  I'll echo what has already been said... we DON’T exclude them... they may be vamps as much as the next, but we can exclude their actions.
   <NyteMuse>   On the topic of who not to give attention to... it seems to me that the people we see mostly in the news as being whackjobs (i.e. Jonathon Sharkey) would probably be better ignored.  The only people I really see of merit as addressing is anyone trying to claim that "All vampires are/do/believe _______".
   <CrazeDS>   SapphoWolf: Yes, and by watching and getting our information from what's publicly made available and can be verified.
   <NyteMuse>   As was already said, communities have nutjobs... others will understand that.
   <Anshar>   Maybe the point would be to create the stability and worry a LOT less about who to include and exclude. If we create a good launching point, people will find their way there. Just look at Sangi's site.
   <Anshar>   She never made any effort to include or exclude. People just showed up.
   <Camazotz>   Good point Anshar
   *   Mike_Future agrees
   <SapphoWolf>   Then that kind of a database if you will could be set up and maintained for the community's use?
   <Sylvere>   Not true, Anshar.
   <sarasvati>   Agreed, Mike, we are doing that
   <CrazeDS>   But if you make drama, you get shown the door pretty fast.
   <Anshar>   Sure, some are loony, some aren't.
   *   NyteMuse nods
   <Gabrielx>   Anshar:  Then she banned them out of channel; *snickers*
   <Sylvere>   When she (Sanguinarius) first started, she made an effort to exclude psi vamps.
   <CrazeDS>   And that's how it SHOULD be. The drama is what tears us all apart and makes enemies of former friends.
   <Anshar>   Sylvere: Didn't know that, but after that policy dissipated, it became a meeting ground, yes?
   <Anshar>   The point is that if you create the environment, the creatures will populate it.
   <Merticus>   In all our sites, in everything we post, say, allow to find its way on YouTube, to media outlets, in print, offline, online, etc. should not only be professional, but done so in the best interest of the community - put forth the examples you want others to know about the vampires.  Be responsible and consistent.
   <Anshar>   Maybe the focus should just be on creating the environment.
   <Sylvere>   Anshar: After we finally managed to convince her that psi's are as much vampires as sangs, she changed her site to include us.
   <Anshar>   and letting the DENIZENS of that environment sort out the hierarchy and communion
   <Sylvere>   That took *years* though.
   <Camazotz>   The only thing one can do is hope to lead by example... We can't force others to not put out crap, but we can try to balance with good info.
   <Anshar>   Well, no one said this would be a fast process.
   <Lono676767>   True
   <AncientKhan>   *Agrees with Cama
   <CrazeDS>   Sylvere: And now it’s reverse.  Many places are convinced SANGS aren't the vamps.
   <sarasvati>   Responsible and consistent... Yes!  As individuals and close groups the consistency can definitely be achieved... a little harder on the global level, but that’s ok, I think.
   <Mike_Future>   We are all good examples, that’s why we're all here right now.
   <SapphoWolf>   Not if we do it well.
   <Merticus>   Drama is accentuated when people choose to argue back and take matters into the public realm.  Disputes should first be resolved over e-mail, a phone conversation, where often both sides will to concede a little to the other.
   <Sovereign>   Agrees with Merticus
   <RavenHarte>   I think if the problem is getting the "best face forward" for the vampyre community then those of you who have the knowledge and skills, have the resources just keep doing what you're doing in bigger and brighter ways.
   <Sylvere>   Cama: True, but first we have to be willing to lead.
   <Sylvere>   So far, we're not and we're mistrustful of anyone who tries.
   <Anshar>   All I'm saying is that our effort might be better directed at creating a staging point, and letting the INDIVIDUALS who come to that staging point create their own structure.
   <NyteMuse>   I also have to wonder just how many of the people posting videos or articles that are so limited or skewed did so because they were turned away by the community for being deluded or sang in a psi-only environment or something... and if they had just been welcomed in, they might have learned more before putting stuff out there?
   <Ravena_>   Announcing that so and so isn't a real vamp or doesn't belong in the community just causes drama. I think time is better spent just taking steps to ensure that if anyone looks into us, they find us different than say... Sharkey.
   <RavenHarte>   Overshadow the idiots by your own light. That’s how we deal with the Fiona Horne's in the Pagan community.
   <Mike_Future>   The problem is, there are no facts. We often fight amongst ourselves over opinion.
   <CrazeDS>   I think Sovereign’s having a hard time keeping up...
   <NyteMuse>   heh...Yeah, does take a while to get used to the speed here.
   <Anshar>   Mike:  That's going to exist in ANY community.
   <AncientKhan>   I'm having a hard time keeping up, and I'm not new...
   <Anshar>   If we try to create some kind of utopia, we will fail. Outright.
   <Camazotz>   Leading by example and appointing ourselves leaders are two different things... anyone can call themselves a leader, its when you find there are people around you even when you didn't ask for it that you're doing anything right.
   <Merticus>   *** Ok, everyone take 30 seconds to breath and read up. ***
   <AcrophobicPixie>   It's going fast, hence me being quietish.
   <LadyCG>   Merticus:  Not all of us can just phone another person.  Some of us can't afford that kind of long distance bill, lol. International calling SUCKS.
   <CrazeDS>   What Mike is saying, though, is that we need more facts, and less opinions to fight about.
   <M_Belanger>   Fiona's pretty vapid.
   <RavenHarte>   Exactly, and she made us all look ridiculous. Barbie on a broomstick.
   <RavenHarte>   I can’t tell you how many interviews I did that year, GODDESS
   <M_Belanger>   That, or she was damned tired at the Witch's Ball last Fall.
   <RavenHarte>   NO, I think your evaluation of her is right on Michelle, LOL
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I agree with RavenHarte.  She's a bit of a twit
   <Sylvere>   Ditto what Khan said... I'm still trying to catch up.
   <Mike_Future>   Yes Craze, but we also need to be more tolerant.
   <Merticus>   Skype - 2-3 cents per min.
   <NyteMuse>   And Skype's free if you're calling other Skype users, not cellphones.
   <Anshar>   CrazeDS:  Religion exists without facts, and structure is possible in that community; structure =/= unity, however.
   <CrazeDS>   I agree, Mike. And we need to "jump the gun" a little less.   
   <Ravena_>   Sanguinarius mentioned this one site, in beta, that will call people free and they don't have to have your phone #.
   <CrazeDS>   Anshar:  But we're not a religion.
   <Mike_Future>   Not saying that we don't.  But it’s an important part of remaining cohesive.
   <Anshar>   Yup, just pointing out the parallel.
   <Sylvere>   Fiona Horne...isn't she the witch that was on Mad Mad House?
   <NyteMuse>   Sylvere, yes.
   *   CrazeDS nods at Sylvere
   <sarasvati>   We can't get more facts, though, without thorough research, and we can't get thorough research without working together.
   <Lono676767>   Yes, but there’s is at least one common bond or commonality that is solid within a religious community that is agreed upon... the problem is finding that commonality and focusing on that, and building upon it.
   <Anshar>   Alright, so let me ask this... would our ultimate purpose of unifying the community be best served by simply making it easier for vamps to meet up and communicate with one another?
   <Gabrielx>   I think honestly the drama is what binds us or a very large piece of it. *shrugs*
   <Merticus>   Also, most of us have each other's phone numbers... least I know many of you are in my phone in case I needed to get in touch over something.  Communication (on any medium) in real-time is crucial sometimes to getting things right... be glad we don't have to wait for newsgroup or e-mail responses anymore.
   <Anshar>   Maybe the social hierarchy, the drama, inclusion, exclusion, maybe it's all irrelevant if it's left to the individual...
   <Gabrielx>   Many just don't want to own up to it.
   <Sylvere>   Anshar:  Not really.
   <M_Belanger>   Well, I think one question would be: What are our goals in unifying the community?  What are our goals as a community, period?
   <SapphoWolf>   Wouldn't the ultimate purpose be for the members of the community to know they're not alone?
   <Reija>   The drama becomes a rallying point, lol
   <LadyCG>   Gabriel you could be right about that.
   <NyteMuse>   I don't know if the drama does, but I see a lot of "Us vs. Them" rallying
   <CrazeDS>   Gabriel:  How?  When we have unsubstantiated rumors that force people to pick sides, how does that bind us?  When we have people being ostracized for being a particular person's friend, how does that bind us?
   <Sylvere>   We've been communicating via the 'Net’ for over a decade.  Where are we?  S.S.D.D.
   <Gabrielx>   We all want to get together work together have fun together but don't know how to go about it proper ways.
   <NyteMuse>   Perpetuating the whole Eternal Outsider thing...
   <Mike_Future>   Ok, I think the major point is: More education for newbs about the community, less attention to the eyesores.
   <Anshar>   Michelle:  Exactly; we have to make an assessment of what we're really trying to accomplish if we want the direction to get there.
   <Ravena_>   People are always trying to get me not to like so and so for something or the other.
   <SapphoWolf>   Let's face it... relatively speaking, we're few and far between.
   <Gabrielx>   Craze:  I didn't say all drama
   <AncientKhan>   *Agrees with Gabriel
   <NyteMuse>   Mike:  Agreed, and I'd also add less subtractive definitions.
   <CrazeDS>   But what I listed is what takes place in MOST drama.
   <Merticus>   One goal in particular:  Consolidation and keeping the accurate flow on information... there are so many forums and groups that are days, weeks, even months behind on news.  At the VVC we have a listing of nearly 50 major forums that we can visit to make sure the information they are distributing or news is up to date... even if on the weekends in our spare time.
   <RavenHarte>   I agree Mike, education first, social networking too I think.
   <NyteMuse>   For those of us with sites or forums, less definition of what isn't a vamp and more of defining what is.
   <Mike_Future>   On a similar note, I think the lot of us have done a fabulous job at doing that on the various boards.
   <Gabrielx>   Craze:  Drama's a double edged sword in my opinion.
   <Sovereign>   Sadly, people need to learn basic people skills rather than relying on just me skills.
   <RavenHarte>   The thing everyone needs to remember is you can’t police the World. There is ALWAYS going to be some horrific and erroneous new website, YouTube, whatever out there.
   <SapphoWolf>   Well, when I get “Ask A Vampire” up and running y'all are welcome to come by and help shape it correctly.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   NyteMuse, I've got the easy part on that, since I don't define it on my forum/site.
   <NyteMuse>   Yeah... I apparently need to spend more time on Darkness Embraced (DE).
   <RavenHarte>   We have TONS of them in the Pagan community.
   <NyteMuse>   *snicker*  Yes, Pixie, you're right about that.
   <Gabrielx>   I think all of us sitting here tonight want to work together and substantiate that and network openly with our groups and areas.
   <CrazeDS>   Gabriel:  If the drama came with more confirmation and less mudslinging and idiocy, that would be fine, but it doesn't.
   <RavenHarte>   You just have to combat that by making sure more of the good gets out there.
   <LadyCG>   Are we still on question A?
   <M_Belanger>   Yeah…
   <Merticus>   Yes, soon to move on to B.
   <Gabrielx>   But is it that that got us here or is it drama in the community that got us here to talk?  *shrug*  I could be wrong.
   <Merticus>   Who else has not spoken to A that wishes to?
   <SapphoWolf>   Do you think we would do well to have some information on group dynamics?
   <NyteMuse>   Yes
   <Anshar>   So, what

[Lono676767]

<Anshar>   So, what if there was a vampire news page, something that compiles many different articles from different sources and offers forums for people to come and talk.  No articles written by the people who run the site, no endorsement of any kind.  A kind of "witchvox" for the vamp community or even something a little more withdrawn... I just can't wrap my mind around all the conflict.  There has to be some path through all of it.
   <Anshar>   Or perhaps I'm just thinking aloud.
   <Sovereign>   Yes, about group dynamics.
   <Ravena_>   Vamp wiki
   <M_Belanger>   We need a vampire Witchvox.com
   <NyteMuse>   I'm actually working on compiling some resources for the Kherete Project on group functioning and dynamics.
   <LadyCG>   Anshar:  We're working on that with SangSpace.
   <Anshar>   Michelle: My point exactly.
   <Reija>   That would be a great idea.
   <RavenHarte>   Definately a VampVox would be something that would help.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   A VampVox would be a good idea.
   <SapphoWolf>   I ask cause I'm certified in mediation and group dynamics and I'd be happy to write something up.
   <Camazotz>   Hard to say lol
   <Anshar>   There you go, VampVox.
   <Mike_Future>   Very interesting concept.
   <Merticus>   Yes, we actually have a news page via the VVC public site - but a standalone inclusive site with RSS feeds such as Witchvox would be wider reaching.
   <Merticus>   Something that we can update dynamically and is in part based on what we are already doing with communicating with each other.
   <RavenHarte>   Most Pagans know Witchvox is a reliable source of info as well as diverse opinions.
   <NyteMuse>   Been borrowing a lot from the Radical Faeries; they have some great resources on conflict resolution and consensus-based decision-making.
   <M_Belanger>   But we need to get the vamps to stop worrying or fretting over whose knob gets to be polished by them hosting or running the site.
   <Camazotz>   Sounds interesting as a thought Merticus.
   <Sovereign>   SapphoWolf:  That would be awesome, I think.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I don't know about it now, but in the 90's WitchVox was actually kind of fun.
   <Mike_Future>   I don't have the time for it, so I'm out lol
   *   SapphoWolf puts it on her to do list
   <M_Belanger>   It's non-partisan, offers up to date news, lets people publish articles, list their groups, connect...
   <Anshar>   Yea, all I'm saying is that a VampVox would help clarify and define things, allow people to communicate and compare...
   <AcrophobicPixie>   You never know what new thing you'd find out about.
   <Ravena_>   I've got my hands full with my own site lol
   <Anshar>   And the bonus would be that there would be no hierarchy or inclusion/exclusion.
   <Mike_Future>   Those that run it could be anonymous.
   <NyteMuse>   Well, making Wikis is rather easy now.
   <LadyCG>   Michelle... have you seen Sang/Psi Space?
   <Reija>   I used to be all over Witchvox several years ago... it was one of my daily sites.
   <RavenHarte>   Honestly Witchvox went up with few squeeks.  If the site is diverse, doesn’t hold anything up higher than another people tend to leave it alone.
   <M_Belanger>   But it would ABSOLUTELY have to be a separate entity from any house, group, order, etc.
   <Gabrielx>   Belanger:  I thought your radio feed was doing a good job on that.
   <M_Belanger>   Shadowdance?  Really?
   <Gabrielx>   nods
   <M_Belanger>   We're so bad at updating!
   <Gabrielx>   nods
   <RavenHarte>   But then you have to word of mouth it to death... people STILL tell me they've never heard of Witchvox, found me through my local website.
   <M_Belanger>   And it's associated with me.  Which, unfortunately, automatically makes it partisan.
   <AncientKhan>   Why do we have to define everything for someone else?  Isn't the point of learning to find your own answers?
   <Gabrielx>   But you still got the attention of many... took questions in, even looked for not only yourself or your crew but others to answer the questions and had multiple individuals speak on their thoughts and opinions.
   <Anshar>   Khan:  Yea, that's why I was thinking an impartial site may be the best approach.
   <Camazotz>   *Agrees with Khan*
   <Anshar>   Khan:  If we're trying to foster communication, that is.
   <Sovereign>   Khan:  It was for me. People become so lazy and seems they need to be spoon fed.
   <Mike_Future>   Impartial is the way to go.  Would make it legitimate.
   <Sylvere>   Khan:  What if the "answers" are so far out of sane that we appear a small speck on the distant shore?
   <Reija>   Hell... Even a section on a 'vampvox' page where a whole lot of people get to answer the question "what is a vampire?"... just to get a wide array of answers and views out there.
   *   NyteMuse agrees with Sovereign
   <Ravena_>   So does a wiki-style site - users and visitors edit it.
   <Merticus>   VampVox - A site by the vampire community for the vampire community - no sponsorships, no loyalties, no endorsements of one particular brand of "vampirism" - and I'm not talking "vampires" either.
   <NyteMuse>   We have articles posted all over PV.org, and the same questions still get asked.
   <AncientKhan>   what a vampire is should not be that much of a stretch...
   <Anshar>   Merticus: Yup, that's the idea.
   <Camazotz>   Well impartial is great... though someone will always think it isn't, but one can't worry about that or nothing happens.
   <Mike_Future>   VampVox:  Shut up and learn.
   <SapphoWolf>   Er... so who would be flipping the bill?
   <Lono676767>   True
   <Sovereign>   Too many sheep and not enough free thinkers.
   *   CrazeDS agrees with Sovereign
   <M_Belanger>   I'd be willing to put money toward it.
   <Anshar>   Sovereign: That would be the case no matter WHAT we were talking about lol.
   <SapphoWolf>   So would I.
   <NyteMuse>   Well... the only real bill would be hosting costs?  We have enough pseudo web geeks to be able to do decent programming w/o having to hire someone.
   <Merticus>   Not that I'm overjoyed with spending money; but I already do so as it is - easier to operate things when that isn't a mitigating factor.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   If I get enough from Avon, I might be able to add some money to the pool.
   <NyteMuse>   And hosting is cheap, relatively.
   <Lono676767>   Which is also a comical point, when people are worried about dangerous "secret" information.. most of the people don’t even take the time to read the info that’s freely given to them.
   <Sovereign>   LOL, I know.
   <RavenHarte>   Witchvox has lots of articles and stuff but primarily it’s a networking site. A place where people can find others in their area; public and private. Covens or groves or just open circles etc.
   <AncientKhan>   There must be 4,000 articles on what a vampire is, and that hasn't worked, or we'd stop hearing this stupid question. It’s something you need to define on your own, and bounce ideas with your contemporaries without being shiny, happy vamps.
   <Mike_Future>   I'd throw a few bucks at it.
   <Sovereign>   I can kick in.
   <RavenHarte>   Doesn’t do a lot of spoon feeding because there is WAY too much info to have just one opinion, as it should be.
   <M_Belanger>   So, I think the Witchvox model is something we should seriously study and strive to emulate for our community.
   <NyteMuse>   I wish the service Cammey used was more reliable... she gets a good deal on packages, but the server goes down so often
   <Camazotz>   *agrees*
   <CrazeDS>   RavenHarte: I don't spoon feed either.  I point someone in the right direction and let them go.
   <Ravena_>   Then there'd be debate on what to include or not to include.
   <SapphoWolf>   I'd host it except then it wouldn't be unpartisan
   <Ravena_>   How do we make it truly unbiased.
   <NyteMuse>   I can't be a primary designer, but I can help.
   <RavenHarte>   I agree I think the community would benefit, but DEFINATELY would have to be independently run, and have diversity of location of contributors, opinions, etc.
   <Merticus>   Let's take a quick vote.... as the VampVox proposal as it’s been laid out here tonight.  Who among you are in favor. 
Vote:  Yes or No
   <Mike_Future>   yes
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Aye
   <sarasvati>   yes
   <Camazotz>   yes
   <Reija>   yes
   <LadyCG>   I like it.
   <CrazeDS>   yes
   <Anshar>   Yes
   <Sovereign>   yes
   <Merticus>   Yes
   <AncientKhan>   Aye. It's worth a try...
   <SapphoWolf>   I think we can do even better, but yes.
   <Gabrielx>   yes
   <Sylvere>   Abstain until such time as questions of how to make it impartial and ensure quality content are answered.
   <M_Belanger>   Isn't most of Witchvox's content user-driven?  Edited by folks, sure, but mostly submitted by the visitors.
   <M_Belanger>   I would even say anonymously run and funded.
   <Reija>   I believe it is, and that's a good thing.
   *   CrazeDS is a parent, a college student and a business owner...so may not be able to chip in monetarily.
   <Anshar>   Yay! I finally had a good idea! *hides under a sheet so he doesn't screw it up*
   <RavenHarte>   I don’t know if you could do anonymously run, because then people might suspect it WAS being run by one House or group or whatever.
   <Mike_Future>   True
   <Merticus>   Would VampVox be a possible infringement issue on the name of WitchVox?  Also, is everyone happy with that name?  Yes or No?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Well, choose someone not in a house/etc. to be the face of it.
   <Mike_Future>   No
   <NyteMuse>   Yeah new topic, later meeting?
   <M_Belanger>   I don't think it would infringe. I suppose we could just ask them.
   <CrazeDS>   You MIGHT run into legal trouble there.
   <Sylvere>   Don't like the name, no.
   <Mike_Future>   The name I'm not too happy with.
   <NyteMuse>   Not big on the name.
   <Anshar>   Vox simply means voice.
   <SapphoWolf>   Yeah, I worry about that copyright thing, since what we'd be doing isn't a parody.
   <CrazeDS>   They may think it's too close, but personally I'm disliking the name.
   <RavenHarte>   I don’t think it would infringe either... there are other voxes out there.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   We'd have to talk with them if we decided on that name.
   <CrazeDS>   We should be at least SOMEWHAT original.
   <RavenHarte>   The real name of Witchvox BTW is The Witches Voice.
   <Gabrielx>   so with it being a wiki idea would there be a need for any legaleeze?
   <AncientKhan>   Here's a thought: How about we make it for others besides just vampires, so we can get outside perspective, since this is going to be a Wiki/WitchVox template?
   <M_Belanger>   VampireVoice
   <Sovereign>   Not completely happy with it, but I have no suggestions.
   <Merticus>   Yes, I agree... original is good.
   <RavenHarte>   And trust me you want something people remember
   <Merticus>   Ok then we can move that discussion to the forum and go from there.
   <Merticus>   *** It’s time for Question B ***
   <Merticus>   b.  The vampire community has languished for years due in no small part to individuals who sought attention, albeit positive or negative for the satisfaction of themselves rather than for the benefit of the community (we’re not here to name anyone in particular).  As leaders of the vampire community (the owners and operators of the major web sites, forums, groups, and discussion lists), how do you characterize your responsibility to
   <Merticus>   this community without falling victim to narcissism, excessive ego, or a desire to achieve influence over others?  How do you distinguish the community decisions you make as
   <Merticus>   transcendent of mere personal aspirations while remaining cognizant of your own wants or needs?  How important is the factor of respect by your fellow vampires to what you do and how you define yourself?
   <Sylvere>   I don’t think it’s possible to be completely altruistic and simultaneously work for the good of the community.  Some amount of narcissism and desire to influence others always plays a factor.  However, a small amount of both is normal and doesn’t equal a personality disorder.  Working for the greater good is, in and of itself, exerting a form of influence.  Ergo, I don’t distinguish between the impulses in the way suggested by this.
   <Merticus>   b.  SphynxCatVP:  My primary aspiration is to get decent information "out there" on the web for people to find. Whether I work with others or whether I'm forced to work alone due to lack of cohesiveness doesn't change my goals. I feel that what I'm doing is worth doing -enough- that I will continue, regardless of anything else that goes on (or doesn't) in the community.
   <Merticus>   SphynxCatVP:  I don't particularly care whether I have everybody's respect or not - I'm not here to stroke my own ego or grow a power base. I have enough RL irons in the fire; that I wouldn't have TIME for it anyway!
   <Vyrdolak>   I don't agree that the vampire community's "languishing" has anything whatsoever to do with the behavior of any individual "leaders" or high-profile people. I think there are many reasons for the "languishing" effect, and most of them have their origins in mainstream cultural trends over which the vampire community itself has no control.
   <Vyrdolak>   As far as my responsibility to the community, I don't think I have an excessive ego, I hope I'm not a narcissist, and I have no wish to achieve influence over others at all. I'm so uninterested in influencing other people, in fact, that when rational discourse fails, I just concede to futility and walk away. Any decisions I make in the interests of "the community" have nothing to do with my personal aspirations because "the community" has nothing to offer me toward those ends. I've long resigned myself to the fact that "my own wants and needs" will never be met, at all, and that's my lot in life.
   <Vyrdolak>   "Respect from my fellow vampires" has exactly zero importance to me when it comes to "what I do and how I define myself" because I know I will never be respected, ever, by anyone, and I'm not wasting energy chasing after that. I just feel that existence in general on this planet would be enhanced to an unimaginable degree if people would be reasonable and aim for harmony instead of conflict. I try to model that, and I try to encourage that (short of getting preachy), and that's all I can do. I expect no personal recognition or rewards from the vampire community at all. That's not why I'm here.
   <LadyCG>   You know… it’s HARD being a leader. No matter how hard you work or how hard you try you can never please everyone all the time. I think you NEED to have a certain amount of ego to do this or you simply won't survive the brutal ways even good leaders get treated. I've always been too thin skinned for this myself and I've been really crushed a few times by criticism, deserved or not (depending on whom you talk to) I've been lied to and about.
   <LadyCG>   When do we start cutting ourselves and each other some slack, is a better question, as opposed to constantly have our motives questioned by ourselves and each other and the community in general? - Just wondering...
   <Camazotz>   I disagree with that Sylvere… I don't think everyone is narcissistic IMHO.
   <Sovereign>   Agrees with Sylvere
   <CrazeDS>   Anyone who knows me knows I don't give a rats tail about whether or not someone respects me or likes me. I say what I say and if you don't like it, tough tits.
   <Anshar>   Don't really have any "fans" so I think I can skip out on this question hehe.
   <M_Belanger>   ::applauds CG::
   <SapphoWolf>   It's simple.  I seem to be here as a leader and not a ruler, a servant to individuals and community, and to be both a mentor and a student.
   <NyteMuse>   I have enough Leo in my chart to say I'd be lying if I didn't get some small pleasure from some of the accolades... but in general, I don't think I have too much of an ego thing going.  I'm still relatively unknown so I haven't attracted too much attention in the larger sense.  I've been called in this life to teach, so that's what I'm going to keep doing, whether people like it or not.
   <M_Belanger>   <-- obviously someone to whom the question is pertinent
   <Ravena_>   I just want to get info out there, I couldn't care less if I'm "popular".
   <Lono676767>   I would have to say I try to temper my responsibility with humility, and more importantly humor… sometimes even at my own expense; I’ve always tried to make myself available and within reach of all the members of my forum. Respect, narcissism…...a fruitbat cares not for such things.
   <Merticus>   I made a conscious decision a long time ago to step back and evaluate the reasons why I choose to be involved in this community.  The decisions I make and the projects I undertake aren’t derived from a need to satisfy my desire to be respected by others, to achieve recognition or fame, or to change the face of modern vampirism.  I take part in the things I do because I enjoy being here and communicating with many in this community
   <Merticus>   and believe in the importance of the research we’ve undertaken with the study.
   <Anshar>   Don't worry 'Ena, you're not. We burn effigies!
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I'm still new to this, so I don't think there's much ego stroking coming my way. I just do what I do so that other's aren't as confused as I was when I got tossed into this pool to sink or swim
   <Camazotz>   It's appreciated Merticus.
   <SapphoWolf>   I would prefer to have earned respect, as respect begets good relations, and good relations make a stronger community.
   <Merticus>   Everyone basically needs to step back and ask themselves if they are here for the right reasons.
   <CrazeDS>   If I'm liked, fine. If I'm respected, fine. But I've gone without both, recently, and I found that I really didn't care.
   <Sovereign>   Totally agree with SapphoWolf.
   <AncientKhan>   Being popular is not a choice. Why we do this is to get a message out that's more important than our names, so those who follow in our footsteps don't have to deal with what we do now.
   <sarasvati>   Quick answer: I look for answers to questions I have with the idea that if I have them, likely others do as well.
   <Mike_Future>   My biggest thing is this is tied into our health. I am a health conscious person and it’s important to me to educate people in the community in that fashion.
   <M_Belanger>   I actually had to tackle some of this issue with HK as well. When my books started to sell and I started to get a lot more media exposure, the Kheprians wanted to make certain that people did not confuse any of my public statements as statements coming from the head of HK. They wanted a clear break between "Michelle the author" and "Michelle HK's Founder".
   <M_Belanger>   I have found myself doing that same thing with the vamp community recently, since I've been doing more work within the paranormal community now.
   <SapphoWolf>   You can have all the drive and ego you can handle, so long as you can control it to the point where you're not stepping into another's space, if that makes any sense.
   <NyteMuse>   There are some schools of thought that suggest it's the unpopular ones who are doing the most good in certain instances, because it forces people outside of their comfort zones to examine things they might need but not otherwise have looked at.
   <sarasvati>   I don't ask to be popular, I don't ask to be a leader... seemingly just doing what I do has lead me here... to be honest, I've always been a bit shocked to be considered a leader enough to be invited here being far more an individual then community leader.
   <RavenHarte>   I definitely didn’t come to the community for ego stroking. I was shunned by my community when it first got out I was "communing with vamps" and I was a nobody here... just the opinionated little witch, LOL.
   <Lono676767>   AS individual members ask me questions, I find; that I am constantly re-defining what I know, and my knowledge becomes more fluidic..."true knowledge comes from knowing that you know nothing"...dude
   <AncientKhan>   "The meek shall inherit the earth" philosophy doesn't work....
   <SapphoWolf>   The health question concerns me too.  I've been to too many funerals.
   <CrazeDS>   No, Khan, it doesn't.
   <Ravena_>   Most of my articles are linked with health.
   *   Mike_Future agreed with Lono
   <Anshar>   I came here to help. Pride was a factor, but I wanted to take pride in MYSELF, not absorb the flagellations of others.
   <Gabrielx>   Agreeing with SapphoWolf as well.  Earned respect also opens avenues of helping one another in times of need or throwing things around in a forum to get feedback on ideas without fear of too much ridicule from peers. Popularity isn't a big deal for most of us I think but it helps get our opinions and idea's out.
   <CrazeDS>   I think most of Sphynx's articles are linked with health as well.
   <Merticus>   Life is too short to not make genuine friends along the way and not forget those who have suffered because they either have or haven’t spoken with others about what they are going through - past or present.
   <Mike_Future>   I came to the online community to help myself. I think we all need to remember that is how most of us started out.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Most of ours involve health. We're just lucky to have a nurse on staff.
   <RavenHarte>   AMEN Merticus!
   <NyteMuse>   And yet, on the other hoof, how many of the older or more experienced members of the community have gotten tired of the boards because they get more abuse than appreciation?
   <Sovereign>   A freaking men, Merticus
   <SapphoWolf>   I didn't seize leadership.  I was elected.  And then it was my task to be equal to what people were hoping I could do.
   <LadyCG>   It’s true NyteMuse.
   *   Lono676767 agrees with NyteMuse
   <Ravena_>   I find that appreciation is not always forthcoming - I wouldn't hold my breath for it.
   <Mike_Future>   I've only been around the OVC since '02 and I have seen big changes with message boards.
   <NyteMuse>   Hell, a lot of the saner people on HK just stopped posting when it got overrun with taters.
   <Anshar>   LH is a group of equals too, so the leadership thing is more of an honorary title and a coordinator position than it is a trump card.
   <Anshar>   Ask Gabriel it's nothing but hassle.
   <Gabrielx>   Anshar: lol  Yes it can be.
   <M_Belanger>   I ended up here because I wanted to learn about the experiences of others and to compare those experiences with my own, to see what I could do differently to manage my needs. A secondary mission then became an attempt to promote knowledge and information sharing so that others would not have to search or struggle quite as hard as I did.
   <Merticus>   One is a leader by the merit of their actions in the community, no bestowed title or years counted for just "showing up".
   <RavenHarte>   I did too Mike, it was all about ME, then I felt a loyalty to those who helped me grow and learn and I come to the live VC for them, to support what THEY wanted
   *   Mike_Future totally agrees with RavenHarte
   <M_Belanger>   Hell, NyteMuse -- I can't bring myself to post on my own boards.
   <Mike_Future>   I feel an obligation now, not in a bad way.
   <RavenHarte>   I have stayed because I have learned so much from all of you that I want to see it continue so others could enjoy what I have
   <NyteMuse>   Oh, except when I call the fun ones to your attention
   <M_Belanger>   And when I do, it's two inches away from me flaming some twit for being an asshat.
   <RavenHarte>   ROLFMAO Sylvere... man I remember those days
   <Mike_Future>   I really want to see this community evolve.
   <Sovereign>   I do too, Mike.
   <Anshar>   Mike: Into what?
   <SapphoWolf>   The house wanted me to take a formal title.  I didn't want to, but eventually I suggested Mother, because that's kind of my role.  So we agreed on Matriarch.
   <Sovereign>   I see so much potential.
   *   CrazeDS nods
   <Mike_Future>   What I really want is for it to be taken seriously.
   <NyteMuse>   This goes back to that point made earlier about tolerance for diversity going too far... when someone shows up on a board thinking he's a zombie and no one wants to correct him.
   <LadyCG>   The community WILL evolve, the only constant being change.  the question becomes what direction do we want it to evolve IN.
   <Vyrdolak>   And is that even controllable, CG?
   <Merticus>   I really want to meet all of you face to face over coffee or some other delectable beverage and see what makes you tick.
   <M_Belanger>   I'd love to see some intelligent questions, not belligerent "I can teach your system to you better" posts or infiltrators from other systems who seem to have an inflated sense of how important we are -- infiltrating us and all. I mean, seriously. It's a message board. What are you possibly gaining by "infiltrating" it?!?
   <RavenHarte>   I think there are ways to keep the ridiculousness down without traumatizing the entire group though
   <Sovereign>   First we must take ourselves seriously, and strive to do instead of just talk about doing.
   <Anshar>   Mike: The pagans aren't taken "seriously" by the community at large if you're using them as a model, there's just less infighting and a little more unity.
   <Sylvere>   But that goes back to community-wide definition and we aren't willing to do that.
   <RavenHarte>   Tolerance for individuality is a MUST or it doesn’t work
   <LadyCG>   I think we can guide it Vyrdolak, we probably can't control it.
   <RavenHarte>   Tolerance for ridiculousness is NOT a must.
   <RavenHarte>   Yes Sovereign. Its as Phyllis Currott taught me years ago... you must Walk your Talk.
   <Sovereign>   Maybe that's the way to get vampvox
   <Ancient Khan>   I don't care who takes us seriously but we need to be respected for our potential to do good, than be penalized for the fruitcakes who make us look like angsty teens.
   <SapphoWolf>   Look at the crap that IS taken seriously anymore...
   <CrazeDS>   Be tolerant of people, not idiocy.  There can be NO tolerance for drama and unsubstantiated rumors.
   <M_Belanger>   And if, gods forbid, you make clear definitions on a message board and exclude someone who is posting about, let's say, creating life in a petri dish through a mixture of suet and his own blood -- you get called elitist, and all other kinds of bull.
   <NyteMuse>   Syl: Ah yes, on the board...that was funny
   <Mike_Future>   lol @ Michelle, too true.
   <SapphoWolf>   Hey, I gave a little talk explaining vampirism through quantum physics... you can imagine how that went down...
   <CrazeDS>   Like a lead balloon?
   <M_Belanger>   There's being open-minded, and then there's enabling delusions.
   <Gabrielx>   SapphoWolf: Were in chat maybe?
   <SapphoWolf>   No, Temple University
   <RavenHarte>   *Nods at Michelle*
   *   NyteMuse agrees with Michelle
   <Camazotz>   SapphoWolf:  I would LOVE to read that if you have a hard copy.
   *   Sylvere agrees with Michelle too
   <Sovereign>   True that, Michelle
   <Merticus>   Here's a side question to the one we're discussing... do you ever feel disconnected to the members on your boards, groups, etc.  And if so, why does this gap exist and do you think they feel the same way?
   <NyteMuse>   More so than with local groups, yes
   <Mike_Future>   There's a huge disconnect with some members.  Indeed
   <NyteMuse>   I really wonder at times what their motivation is in joining these boards.
   <Mike_Future>   Indeed
   <Gabrielx>   Merticus:  I think it depends on avenues of life. Everyone’s life is always changing some have to go to work more often then others depending on where at in there life and that can cause gaps along with medical issues and just a slew.
   <Gabrielx>   So I'd say yes.
   <Sylvere>   I'm very disconnected right now because I don't have time for my e-group.  I have to make my studies a priority.
   <NyteMuse>   It's easier to tell when you meet someone in person why they're there, or what they're hoping to get.
   <RavenHarte>   My boards are dominated by Pagans not vamps but I don’t feel a disconnect because I make efforts to post topics that allow them to share themselves.
   <Mike_Future>   I understand for some it’s a passing phase.
   <M_Belanger>   I feel I cannot even relate to half of the people on those boards. I now understand why so many older vamps don't participate in the community past a certain point. The age gap is palpable and growing.
   <Gabrielx>   I'd also say it’s about life.
   <SapphoWolf>   I wonder if they really think I truly do nothing else.
   <CrazeDS>   I didn't used to feel disconnected with the people on S&M... but since I went back, I have to say I do. But that's more for personal reasons.
   <NyteMuse>   Oh gods... I'm not even old and I feel ancient on the boards.
   <M_Belanger>   When language devolves to “TEH ROXXOR OMG WTFBBQ!!!” I can keep up, but I feel my IQ dropping.
   <NyteMuse>   All the teenagers...
   <Mike_Future>   VCMB became a playground earlier this year.
   <M_Belanger>   And I want to help them and communicate, but I'm not even sure we speak the same language.
   <Ravena_>   I still have not figured out the VCMB, so I gave up.  Some sort of bizarre group system.
   <Lono676767>   lmao Michelle... welcome to my world.
   <SapphoWolf>   "I think I'm a vampire because I like blood and nighttime."
   <RavenHarte>   Definitely, THAT makes me nuts on some boards I am on but my own boards prohibit that.
   <NyteMuse>   Lono's got a point, Michelle... it's much worse on the PsychicVampire (PV) site.
   <Mike_Future>   It works for us, keeps trolls at a minimum.
   *   NyteMuse shudders
   <SapphoWolf>   There's a guy on Facebook who "thinks" he's Count Dracula.
   <Anshar>   SapphoWolf:  That's like saying "I think I'm a Christian because I like perpendicular lines, wine, and guilt."
   <Lono676767>   We gotta crack down on that.
   <Merticus>   Do you worry that such disconnect could lead to what some of us have to say and what we write as falling on deaf ears or not receiving the consideration it would have if we actively communicated and befriended many of those on our forums, etc.?  Is there a danger in this down the road?
   <LadyCG>   Michelle when I started having that problem on S&M I turned it over to Craze as my second, and a lot younger than I am, and I went to my more private board DARK where I have more folks I totally relate to closer to my own age group.
   <NyteMuse>   I think you make a good point, Merticus.
   <Ravena_>   Merticus, do we have to be everyone's friend?  That’s tiresome.
   <Merticus>   Of course not, but do we run the risk of becoming irrelevant by virtue of not being as active as we once were... as members of the community take on more responsibility, family, lives, etc.  Are others coming in behind us at a fast enough rate to replace the logical, sane, and supportive voices?
   <NyteMuse>   Merticus:  No.  The rate is not constant, imo
   <Reija>   15 years ago when I/we were just starting out, there weren't all that many "older" vamps in the community to help and talk to... now that I'm one of the "old folks", I can't help but look at these kids and recoil in horror... were we really THAT bad or is it just that we were smarter to begin with?
   <Mike_Future>   I think vampire health is overlooked in many portions of the OVC.
   <RavenHarte>   For me I've stayed on boards where I am clearly the "senior citizen" because I know there were people who needed me, who were listening. THAT makes the difference.
   <Vyrdolak>   Works two ways, Merticus -- talking at people who ignore you doesn't help much.
   <NyteMuse>   I've taught in large groups and I've taught in small groups.  Even if I wasn't "friends" with smaller groups, I feel like more of my lessons got through because there was a more personal connection.
   <M_Belanger>   On one hand, I have to be -- or I have to stay silent. Nothing earns resentment quite so much as a celebrity appearing to dis their fans.
   <RavenHarte>   For me if I can reach 5 our of 50 and help them walk their path a little straighter, its worth it.
   <M_Belanger>   And somewhere along the line, some folks decided I was a "celebrity".
   <NyteMuse>   Our boards are huge, we obviously don't have time to PM or friend EVERYONE, but maybe taking a few minutes to pick out a person at random who might be a bit on the deluded side and contact them privately might help.
   <Sylvere>   I think we were less influenced by the rampant idiocy on the boards today because we were the ones to define the community.
   <AncientKhan>   Can I have your autograph, Ms. Belanger? You're so dreamy....
   <Ravena_>   I'm not a warm and fuzzy sort - I put out the info and if they don't listen and something bad happens... it's their own fault.
   <Anshar>   Michelle: I'd hope your fans are fans of self-exploration and the pursuit of knowledge.  Then you don't have to worry about offering your opinion. *sighs* sometimes a reality like that only seems like a daydream.
   <M_Belanger>   I have to answer even the craziest pieces of fan mail nicely -- or ignore them. And ignoring them gets people pretty pissed as well.
   <Camazotz>   On the boards... hmm, so many people come and go.  For me, what's left becomes like family... with the ups and downs that brings.
   <M_Belanger>   Is it me or has the quality of people on the boards degraded?
   <RavenHarte>   Oooh yeah Michelle I can see where that can be a problem for you.
   <Sylvere>   Now so many n00bs want to jump on our bandwagon but they want to add all kinds of dumb shit that we never thought of.
   <M_Belanger>   Or am I really just getting that old and that tired that quickly?
   <NyteMuse>   I've found in dealing with teenagers especially, that if you confront them privately, it's easier to reach common ground.  Calling them out in public often leads to fronting.
   <Sylvere>   Happened to the Otherkin community almost 10 years ago.
   <LadyCG>   I know I am Michelle, lol.
   <Anshar>   Michelle:  Maybe your standards have just gone up. (not a bad thing)
   <AncientKhan>   Statler and Waldorf!
   <Vyrdolak>   Nah, Michelle, you're just a baby still.
   <M_Belanger>   Anshar:  Fair
   <Mike_Future>   Randomness takes over, lol.
   <Anshar>   The more you know, the less you like ignorance.
   <M_Belanger>   I'd like to think so. Though I did find my first gray hair. ::ducks::
   <Ravena_>   I don't have time to keep up with all the boards personally.  I have a few grey streaks
   <Camazotz>   Only first?  Lucky you.
   <LadyCG>   Oh geeze Michelle... just one?
   <Anshar>   Wow, I had them at 15 lol.
   *   Sylvere snorts... I've had grey for 10 years but they just fall out
   <Camazotz>   18 for me… but that's thyroid.
   <AncientKhan>   No gray, but the hairline is receding from pulling it out so much...
   <Sovereign>   I started going gray at 18, 32 now.
   <Merticus>   Ok, has everyone said what they wish for question B where we can move on to question C?
   *   Anshar nods
   <Sovereign>   yes
   <M_Belanger>   I think so.
   <Mike_Future>   yes
   <AncientKhan>   Carry on, Merticus
   <Gabrielx>   yeah
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I'm good
   <Merticus>   Question C.  The following question involves a project the VVC is considering regarding the translation of important vampirism / vampire community written or printed materials into languages other than English.  If you had to choose a handful (5 or so) documents, articles, or other bodies of work that represent the fundamental ideals of the vampire community to translate into foreign languages (French, Spanish, German, Russian, etc.), which would
   <Merticus>    these be and why?  Aside from translations, what steps are you personally taking to reach out to vampires in other countries and what additional measures could be explored by the community as a whole?
   <Mike_Future>   I originated the idea for the international sections on the VCMB. While still unfinished, I feel it is unique in the community. It serves as sort of a directory for vampires and donors from all over the world. It is still in its working stages but it has potential to be an important addition to the community.
   <NyteMuse>   I'm going to beat AcrophobicPixie to this one.  Donor Bill of Rights
   <RavenHarte>   Yes, agrees with NyteMuse.
   <Sylvere>   I’d like to see the RVCA’s Safer Bloodletting Guide (I have yet to see another one as comprehensive as ours), the Donor’s Bill of Rights, a history of the community similar to what’s in The Psychic Vampire Codex, and FAQ that includes “fiction/folklore vs. reality” section translated into other languages.  At this time, I’m not actively reaching out to vamps in other countries.  However, the RVCA has always welcomed vampires, donors.
   <Camazotz>   Well I think lots of you folks here have written amazing articles- my question which of those would be available to use for something like this?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   sorry, having pc issues, so I'm slow on the draw tonight
   <Anshar>   My opinion is that when you choose what to and what not to translate, this becomes a conversation solely about elitism, scrutiny, and exclusionism. The whole point of the VC is to promote different ideas.  I don't think this is in our realm.  Let someone else decide.
   <Ravena_>   My husband could probably translate my articles to Spanish...
   <M_Belanger>   Excerpts of the following: Raven Kaldera's vamp book, CG's book, my Psychic Vampire Codex as far as books go.
   <LadyCG>   I honestly don't know which articles etc I'd choose, there are so many good ones. We need to nominate a handful or get nominations from the community and take a vote on it, or ask members of the community to help with translating.
   <LadyCG>   Personally I'm working on a Global Contact list that will put those of us who offer LIVE services to our kind. There are many of us who offer sanctuary, mentoring, houses and meets in the real life environment. I think its important we network those of us who do, so we can work to get vampires in need the info they need or even have the capability to move someone from one community to another if for example we had a battered wife or other emergency.
   <LadyCG>   As vampires I think it’s critical that we can depend on each other in crisis.
   <Camazotz>   I'd love to see the Psychic Vampire Codex translated, definitely.
   <Reija>   i would say don't decide *what* to translate, rather... what to translate FIRST... which things are the most commonly accepted as "essential reading" and go from there.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   A good portion of what's in our Donor 101 section should be translated.
   <Sylvere>   Anshar: As I understood it, it was getting a few of the top things translated ASAP and then work on the rest as time allows.  I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm mistaken.
   <LadyCG>   Anyone who wants to use anything from my articles or book is welcome to them.
   <Merticus>   As some of you may have noticed I updated the links today to include German, Spanish, and Russian related vampire community sites.
   <NyteMuse>   Weren't we going to put together a list of vamp or vamp-friendly professionals for consultation, like in legal matters?
   <Camazotz>   Mike, you know some of your articles are on Sanguinox (NOX) - they've been very useful and would love to include those... same with CG.
   <Anshar>   Sylvere:  Thanks for clarifying, was confused.
   <RavenHarte>   Well, and speaking of translations, are there works out there in other languages that we should be looking at for U.S.?
   <Mike_Future>   That would be great, Camazotz.
   <Merticus>   There is a demand for documents (however they are to be decided upon) to be translated in other languages.  Good point RavenHarte.
   <M_Belanger>   Well, "Vampires in Their Own Words" automatically had a Spanish translation.
   <LadyCG>   I still own the copyright on all my stuff so it’s here for the asking.
   <M_Belanger>   As I found out from requests to interview me from Mexico and ... Peru?  I think it was Peru.
   <NyteMuse>   I'd honestly like to see more e-versions of things.  Lulu kicks arse.
   <Merticus>   Copyrights, who gives permission for translation, and the mechanics can be worked out down the road... as long as the sincere interest is there to pursue this.
   <Merticus>   Last week I met with a representative from the Russian vampire "community" who conveyed to me that literature in Russian on real vampirism is virtually non-existent.
   <Camazotz>   Where would they be hosted Merticus? On VVC public, or elsewhere?
   <Merticus>   They would be public domain as long as the author agreed, otherwise hosted where the respective author grants permission.  VVC or otherwise.
   <NyteMuse>   And some programs can translate e-documents into native languages with little difficulty.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I'll talk to my friend about French and Japanese translations after he gets back from his honeymoon.
   <Mike_Future>   We should have a thread where we can link to articles and such for possible inclusion.
   <Lono676767>   I'd love to do a Japanese translation of my site.
   <M_Belanger>   I got an idea ... how about everyone here write three essays:
1.)  What Makes a Vampire
2.)  How Vampires Feed
3.)  Ethical Vampirism
Each from their own experience & point of view, and we all collect it into a Lulu book?
   <NyteMuse>   Hm….not a bad idea.
   <Anshar>   Michelle:  Seconded!
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Can I do mine on donors instead, Michelle?
   <Mike_Future>   Oh boy, with all my herpetology papers...
   <M_Belanger>   From emails I've gotten, I know there are people out there in other countries who have been translating things for their groups. I get links to versions of the Codex, for example
   <Gabrielx>   Michelle:  Not a bad idea.
   <AncientKhan>   I think it could be productive...
   <M_Belanger>   Absoutely -- that view needs to be there, AcrophobicPixie
   <Anshar>   Putting all that into one place focuses on diversity of opinion.
   <Anshar>   I think it sends the right message, as well.
   <Merticus>   Not a bad idea at all... especially given the range of views and representation we have here.
   <M_Belanger>   I mean, consider who we have here -- and the diversity of those views. We could use it for a site, too, but why not a book.
   <RavenHarte>   Oh I'm glad you asked that AcrophobicPixie.
   <Sylvere>   Michelle:  Can we get “Vampires In Their Own Words” translated into other languages?
   <M_Belanger>   Not unless Llewellyn does it.
   <M_Belanger>   Which is why, if we do another, although I appreciated the distribution on that title, we should probably do it through lulu just to retain the rights.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I have to keep us in mind, RavenHarte
   <M_Belanger>   IMO we need more donors willing to speak up and talk their talk.
   <LadyCG>   I'd be willing to contribute to a book, if we could use proceeds, if any, to pay for the site we want for vampvox.
   *   AcrophobicPixie does the donor secret handshake with RavenHarte.
   <Camazotz>   So... two ideas here then - translations and a book, or is the book what will be translated?
   <Merticus>   Camazotz:  The articles we write for such a publication could also be translated into multiple languages as well... less I missed reading that earlier.
   <M_Belanger>   That would be my idea, Merticus.
   <M_Belanger>   Kind of a vampire handbook; only written by everyone, to insure a wide variety of views and equal footing for all those views.
   <Merticus>   I'll place the idea under VVC Projects for fine tuning and see how much interest across the board we have.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Michelle, I'll rally my people, see what we can do.
   <AncientKhan>   Gee! I think I just saw some unity in the community without bickering...
   <Sylvere>   We still own the rights to our own articles, so we should just be able to use what we've already contributed.  Yes?
   <RavenHarte>   And I agree with Michelle there need to be more donors make their voices heard.
   <Mike_Future>   Pixie, you and your admins are doing such a wonderful thing. I thought I would tell you that.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   RavenHarte:  That's why Lady Slinky kicked my bootie into making Black Swan Haven (BSH).
   <AcrophobicPixie>   We needed a place of our own in this little world.
   <Lono676767>   I'd definitely be willing to write some feeding articles.
   <Gabrielx>   Who's going to be doing the compiling?
   <M_Belanger>   Well, I can, if no one else wants to.
   <M_Belanger>   I've got both the editing & lay-out & design skills.
   <Merticus>   We can collect the articles via the forum and work on translations with our own contacts from there - might be easier.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I'll talk to our nurse, see if we can't use her safety articles
   Merticus>   Anything else anyone in particular is doing in their local groups, Houses, lives etc. to reach out to vampires outside the United States or Canada...?  I know VVC has representatives from Ireland, Germany, Australia, Canada, etc.
   <Ravena_>   I prefer to remain anonymous, so not doing anything in my local community, hell, I don't even know if there *is* a local community here.
   <Camazotz>   For me, just the usual... working with those I can help in any way locally, trying to get meetups to happen etc.
   <Gabrielx>   Were just doing or normal local gtg's and bbq's and working with some of the meetup groups out here.
   <AncientKhan>   We have Canadians, Australians, and Europeans in Dark Nations (DN).
   <Reija>   Ravena:  There really truly ISN'T much of a local community in Halifax (Canada). Trust me; I looked when I lived there.
   <LadyCG>   There is a community there in Halifax.  Two of my coven moved there.  Pixie & ShadowWalker are there now.
   <Ravena_>   Yeah, I didn't think there was, except the Goth dude who wore fangs.
   <Sylvere>   I don't support a lulu book.  Not after working for a book publisher.
   <M_Belanger>   Personally, I'd be inclined to compile it into any and every format we can once all the articles are collected -- PDF, eBook, whatever.
   <Sylvere>   I can help with the editing and proofing.
   <M_Belanger>   Thank gods, Sylvere.
   <Mike_Future>   An actual book would be nice.
   <M_Belanger>   If we wanted to pop the money, we could do BookSurge -- they're likely the only POD that Amazon's going to be carrying soon anyway.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Book would be good, same as ebook.
   <Merticus>   Lulu supports online downloading of publications – PDF.
   <Ravena_>   I can't write anything as a vampire - but I can help with the copy editing.
   <Sylvere>   I don't know if I can get access to the typesetting program at school or not.
   <Vyrdolak>   CreateSpace -- you need 10+ titles for Booksurge, I think.
   <RavenHarte>   I'll do whatever I can, I'm am awesome worker bee *cheesy grin*.
   <Sylvere>   Anyone got InDesign from Adobe?  (Multiple Answers: Yes)
   <M_Belanger>   Really?  They keep bugging me to publish through them.
   <Sovereign>   Agrees with RavenHarte -- me too. Delegate and I'll get it done.
   <M_Belanger>   How about we go round robin with edits (once we get it) or even divide it up?
   <RavenHarte>   I think round robin edits is a GREAT idea.
   <Sylvere>   Round robin is the only way to go.  That’s what we do at the publishing house.
   <Vyrdolak>   I just went up on CreateSpace.
   <Camazotz>   I don’t mind doing some proofing... I'm better than my typing implies.
   <Lono676767>   Whoah... is this what cooperation feels like? *feels woozy*
   <AncientKhan>   See, Lono, this was my point. We'll work together when someone isn't told they're wrong.
   <Anshar>   Khan: You're wrong about that. :p
   <Camazotz>   lmao @ Anshar
   <Merticus>   Ok I'll set up a thread or sub-section actually for everything tomorrow if that is ok with Michelle and everyone else?  That way we also can cross-check edit/translations of each other to ensure accuracy and save time in the end.
   <RavenHarte>   *arm around Sovereign*  Point us to the work.
   <M_Belanger>   Sounds good.
   <M_Belanger>   And if anyone wants to debate or modify those three topics, feel free, but I think they cover the most basic questions
   <LadyCG>   ok with me Merticus
   <AncientKhan>   Good
   <Mike_Future>   ok
   <Camazotz>   sounds good
   *   NyteMuse nod
   <Sylvere>   aye
   <AcrophobicPixie>   good for me
   <Merticus>   Ok are we ready for question D?
   *   Lono676767 nods
   <LadyCG>   yes
   <Anshar>   Always ready for Ds.
   <AncientKhan>   go...
   <Merticus>   Question D.  Everyone take a moment to share your opinion on a project the VVC has the opportunity to spearhead.  There are many in this community who seek specific guidance for difficult situations or questions that may not always be answered via message boards or through the insight of one particular individual in an e-mail.  Still other members would like the ability to be connected with others in the community in real-time or have at their disposal a collective resource for multiple viewpoints.
   <Merticus>   To this end, on a trial basis let’s establish a bi-monthly online VVC hosted chat advertised to the major forums and groups of the community.  At these chats, members will be able to ask their questions in a moderated format and request additional support if needed by e-mail or other means of follow-up.  What are your thoughts or opinions on this concept?  How should such be implemented?
   <Mike_Future>   This could be an interesting project, but the agenda has to be well defined beforehand. In the past I have tried to organize classes and discussions in chat and it was very hard to keep on topic. Members should have maybe one or two questions lined up beforehand.
   <NyteMuse>   Provided the times rotate to accommodate different time zones.  I'm in favor.
   <LadyCG>   I LOVE the chat idea and I'll even help with it. Put me on your go to list for that one Merticus, and I'll help in any way I can.
   <Anshar>   A web-chat on the site might be a nice way to implement this.
   <Camazotz>   Love the idea, though time zones might be an issue for me on occasion.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I'm on IRC all the time, but *shrugs*
   <Vyrdolak>   Seems like a good idea in theory, anyway.
   <Sylvere>   I'm all for chat sessions.
   <NyteMuse>   Most of the free chat applets suck, though.  Jirc would be nice, if we could afford it.
   <RavenHarte>   OK I wondered about this, do you mean a chat like this one open to public?
   <Merticus>   No, hopefully something other than IRC.  Personally I have no problem with IRC but others sometimes find the process to connect convoluted.
   <M_Belanger>   When I have time and am home, this is a great idea.
   <Sovereign>   I’m down with the chat.
   <Merticus>   RavenHarte:  Yes, a community public chat.
   <Anshar>   Following the web chat link with some popular vamp site channel links for when the web chat isn't up could also be a nice idea.
   <LadyCG>   I already have a GREAT jirc program on my website we can use.
   <AncientKhan>   Up with chat.  Down on IRC.
   <Anshar>   LadyCG:  Great!
   <Merticus>   I would be willing to support these chats on a trial basis and suggest they be hosted at alternating times and possibly on multiple different platforms to allow the maximum number of participants.  Different members from the VVC could take turns hosting these chats and as the software/interface provides would act as moderators. 
   <Mike_Future>   It's a great idea.  There will be people lining up to talk to us.
   <NyteMuse>   Please gods, not chatango.
   <Merticus>   I’ve attended chats in other communities where the questions are posted in a queue and answered in order with the option to control the ability of those to discuss openly; essentially taking turns until everyone has had the opportunity to make their statements, comments, etc.
   <Sylvere>   Java chat is evil.
   <Anshar>   Merticus:  Sounds like a great implementation.
   <Anshar>   Can't wait to see how it works in practice.
   <LadyCG>   I have a great jirc full paid version we can use already on my website.
   <Merticus>   Yes Java and YIM are also problematic so we'd have to research the best alternatives.
   <Sovereign>   Hell no to chatsy.
   <NyteMuse>   I must be in the minority...I actually like IRC :p
   <Sylvere>   I like IRC and YIM.
   <Gabrielx>   the only issue with IRC is sometimes connections suck depending on chosen server and every now and then there's a net split.
   <NyteMuse>   Gabriel:  True, but comparatively, I think IRC is a better option.
   <Merticus>   Ok quick vote.  All in favor of on a trial basis testing this open community chat program?  Vote:  Yes or No
   <Anshar>   Merticus:  Sounds like we're widely in favor of it, any other stipulations or questions on the topic? Does it require a vote?
   <Sylvere>   Yes
   <NyteMuse>   Yes
   <Anshar>   Yes.
   <Camazotz>   yes
   <Lono676767>   yes
   <Reija>   yes
   <Mike_Future>   yes
   <Ravena_>   yes
   <Merticus>   Yes
   <LadyCG>   yes
   <Gabrielx>   yes
   <RavenHarte>   Well if someone writes out how to get to it then I'll give it a shot.
   <Sovereign>   yes
   <Vyrdolak>   yes
   <Merticus>   e.  Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion?
   <NyteMuse>   Hm... Do we want to try addressing the outsurge to Dominae Drakonis’ blog and appearance on History Channel’s MonsterQuest, or is that being handled enough elsewhere?
   <AncientKhan>   *Pauses for others to intro new topics.  I have nothing I can add.
   <Mike_Future>   I think the issue of minors in our community and the possible legal issues is something that needs to be addressed.
   <LadyCG>   Mike I've had minors on my boards for years.  It’s never been an issue.
   <NyteMuse>   Yeah...we're trying to discuss the issue of minors on the Kherete boards and it's going slowly.
   <LadyCG>   NyteMuse:  Are you folks having issues with minors?
   <NyteMuse>   Not real issues, just debating what parts we want them exposed to.
   <NyteMuse>   Like the regional networking and can we get our butts sued for letting minors and adults interact and meet offline, etc
   <LadyCG>   On S&M we only kept minors out of the adult forums beyond that ...
   <Ravena_>   We don't let minors do anything.
   <Ravena_>   The minors make their own decisions and the parents simply are not watching them while on the computer.
   <Ravena_>   The problem with minors is the predatory adults you find anywhere you find kids.
   <Anshar>   Merticus:  Maybe we make a web based trivia game on vampirism it would encourage people who are already active in the community but don't follow what we do to come and peruse the site.
   <Sylvere>   I'd like to revisit the issue of the YouTube roundtable.
   <LadyCG>   I'm too tired to think of anything useful at this point
   <Merticus>   Anshar:  Ironically, SoulSplat hosts a “Dark Trivia” thread that involves vampirism via the AVA forums – maybe the two of you can network on something specifically tailored for the vampire community lol.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   YouTube would be a good thing.
   <M_Belanger>   Oooh ... some little Flash thing?
   <Merticus>   I wish Zilchy was here to weigh in on that... (afk finding Zilchy)
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I'll have to get my hair done, and the little brother in line when I tape it, but it's feasible
   <Sylvere>   I like what Zilchy's doing but I'd like to see more of us involved.
   <Sylvere>   I know some don't want the publicity but I think we can do an acceptable job with those who are comfortable with it.
   <NyteMuse>   I'd LIKE to be more involved, but I feel like videos where the speaker's face is blacked out aren't taken seriously.
   <Merticus>   Who is willing to pitch in to work with Zilchy on the YouTube roundtable projects proposed a few months back?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   I will.
   *   Sylvere raises hand
   *   AcrophobicPixie raises her hand
   <M_Belanger>   Well, I've got a fancy digital video camera, if I could only figure out how the damned thing works.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Michelle, if you come to my store, I'll help you out.  I give digicam classes.
   <Merticus>   The thread is already established on the forum under projects... just waiting for those who wish to participate to coordinate with each other.  That will take an offline/inter-email arrangement to work out.
   <Mike_Future>   On the YouTube note, has anyone seen what Anonymous had been doing with the scientology protests?
   <M_Belanger>   Zilchy -- maybe arrange to have guest appearances?
   <NyteMuse>   I wouldn't mind doing audio or podcasts... I've got a mic that works now and decent sound-editing software.  Just can't go on the video thing.
   <Ravena_>   Yes, I've seen it Mike.
   <Ravena_>   And no, I'm not doing anything on video, ever. lol
   <M_Belanger>   Hey -- if folks download Skype, we could do a roundtable podcast.
   <NyteMuse>   Yay for Skype!
   <Anshar>   ooh. fun!
   <Merticus>   Though as a group I suppose we could determine what format and topics we'd like to discuss, etc.
   <M_Belanger>   Not video, but I *do* know how to edit that, at least a little.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   That could work.
   <Mike_Future>   I think frequent YouTube videos such as those, expressing our opinions would be an idea to consider.
   <Sylvere>   Gawd, no Skype.  I already have too much crap on my computer.
   <Merticus>   Or perhaps a series of longer cut videos - more continuity.
   <Camazotz>   I'm torn.  I think on one hand it's a good idea, but if I'm meant to be here representing those in my "family" then they don't want us more public... catch-22 for me.
   <Merticus>   Yes, it's definitely one of those double-edged swords... YouTube is helping and hurting the community at the same time by my estimation.
   <Merticus>   And the spin-off videos are less than always accurate sources of information.
   <Camazotz>   Glad you agree Merticus.
   <Merticus>   In all honestly if it were up to me very little if anything would ever be public domain, however, since that isn't and unfortunately will never be the case I'm resigned to seeing that what is shown is responsible, etc.
   <Ravena_>   What is the big secret Merticus?  We don't sacrifice young virgins... well, only on Sundays…
   <Merticus>   The hassle (or rather repetitiveness) more so than anything else of dealing with those from outside the community.
   <Sylvere>   Merticus: I wouldn't have put us in the public eye either, but Don Henrie forced us there whether we like it or not.  Since we can't go back, we must go forward.
   <Ravena_>   For someone who thinks it's a hassle you sure put a lot of effort into omg what will the public think.
   <Merticus>   Sylvere:  I agree with you.  Ravena:  Hopes of lessoning future hassl

[Lono676767]

<Merticus>   Sylvere:  I agree with you.  Ravena:  Hopes of lessoning future hassles or misunderstandings is precisely why I invest the amount of time I do.  Hence the concept “responsible media portrayal”.
   <NyteMuse>   Sylvere:  If you have enough cell minutes, you could call in on your cell phone, I think.
   <M_Belanger>   For those with a tech brain -- if we get mp3 audio of, say a roundtable discussion of some folks, is it possible to do something to turn it into a YouTube video?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   If need be, someone could figure out how to do the translation of podcast to video thing, where we could have a transcript on the screen.
   <Mike_Future>   We don't have to appear on camera.
   <M_Belanger>   Even if it's just with some kind of slideshow?
   <RavenHarte>   I only just today checked out Second Life and it was KILLING this stupid machine... I think Skype would blow this up.
   <Mike_Future>   Yes Michelle.
   <NyteMuse>   Michelle, yes.
   <M_Belanger>   That would also protect people who didn't want to appear on camera.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Michelle, it's possible, but I don't have the programs.
   <Sylvere>   NyteMuse:  I could probably call on my landline...unlimited LD at a flat rate, ftw.
   <NyteMuse>   I think I have the program for it.
   <Mike_Future>   Who would do that voiceovers is the issue?
   <NyteMuse>   I'll poke around and see if I can do some test runs of movie creation.
   <AncientKhan>   How about something other than YouTube, like a video upload to VVC?
   <Ravena_>   I'm okay with voice work.
   <Merticus>   I'm always up for audio but not video.
   <NyteMuse>   That's another option.
   <Mike_Future>   YouTube reaches more people.  "These are the opinions of the VVC" type of thing.
   <Lono676767>   I recommend Adobe Premiere if you have a PC, Final Cut Pro if you have a MAC to edit the video.
   <NyteMuse>   I'm totally fine with voice.
   <M_Belanger>   I'd suggest getting volunteers & doing maybe 5-6 people at a time, several episodes to get as many in as possible.
   <AncientKhan>   If folks are really interested, they'll find us. Always have.
   *   Sylvere agrees with Mike re: distribution
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Plus, putting it on YouTube aids in embedding the video on to other sites.
   <Camazotz>   Doesn't the book idea we've discussed in some ways overlap with this?
   <M_Belanger>   I think it does.
   <M_Belanger>   So maybe we do the two projects together, more or less?
   <M_Belanger>   Cover the same three questions
   <Mike_Future>   Yes
   <M_Belanger>   Just in audio format.
   <M_Belanger>   So we can get a lively debate going.
   <RavenHarte>   Perhaps the videos can help promote the book?
   <NyteMuse>   Camazotz: Yes, but some people are more video-inclined, so I'd say we go both ways.
   <Mike_Future>   I was thinking, though, of addressing community problems as they pop up in opinion video pieces.  Such as Sharkey.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   If we read our articles and record it, we'd have a step up on getting it to audio book.
   <Merticus>   Yes, we could do one to that point - on a wide range.  It would also be nice to have film taken at TWILIGHT or other gatherings... especially the panel discussions if panelists agree to be filmed.
   <NyteMuse>   I wouldn't mind doing editing for audio...
   <M_Belanger>   I've got a sweet contact at Podiobooks if we want to go that route.
   *   NyteMuse has degree in sound design
   <Lono676767>   ProTools or Wave Studio for audio.
   <NyteMuse>   Actually, I've grown fond of Sony Soundforge.
   *   Sylvere has been told I have an *excellent* voice...but hates how I sound filtered through technology.
   <Lono676767>   Another good one... forgot about that program.
   <Ravena_>   I think everyone hates the sound of their own voice, I do at least.
   <Sylvere>   SphynxCatVP is the one to ask how I sound in the 'Net.  She tuned in when I was on "Nightwatch".
   <Mike_Future>   So have the voice distorted.  If we all agree on what is being shown it will be a "one voice" kind of thing.
   <RavenHarte>   If you think of something you need me for or I can contribute I'm good for either audio or video.
   <Merticus>   Everyone let's work to get the roundtable thread active again and see if we can have something come of this since obviously there is GREAT interest.   
   <Lono676767>   I speak to fast when I’m on a radio interview... and sometimes have the "um" curse.
   <M_Belanger>   Which is why I think a project that just records audio, but does some kind of image thingy to make it a video and give people stuff to look at skirts the issue of folks who don't want to be on camera.
   *   NyteMuse agrees with Michelle
   <Mike_Future>   Agreed
   <Sylvere>   I'm ok with being on camera.
   <Mike_Future>   The VVC logo could be shown with a voice over.
   <M_Belanger>   Download Skype. With Audacity, I can record any conference calls. The podcasters do it all the time.
   <Sylvere>   I think the transcript idea is better.
   <M_Belanger>   Hell, I might even be able to get Chris to host it (and therefore edit it).
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Or like what some people do to songs, and post the lyrics in time to the music.  We could do that with a transcript.
   <Sylvere>   Just watching a static logo is boring.  People will turn it off and go to something else.
   <M_Belanger>   I love you all… I am not typing up a transcript.
   <NyteMuse>   I might be convinced...I used to do transcription.  Almost went into court reporting for a while.
   <Merticus>   Well the details we can work out... maybe composite still shots or something.
   <RavenHarte>   I agree just the logo won’t work.
   *   zilchmeister peeks.
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Well, each person could write out what they said.
   <Merticus>   And here is Zilchy to take the floor on YouTube and videos.
   <zilchmeister>   oh crap, thanks Merticus
   <Merticus>   Someone in a nutshell care to catch Zilchy up on the videos?  Basically we are resurrecting the original idea of a roundtable, audio, group, etc. filmed discussion, debate, etc.
   <Merticus>   Zilchy how would you characterize your overall feedback from your videos or the state of media on vampirism on YouTube, etc. in general?
   <M_Belanger>   OK, so video but not really roundtable and the articles to be a book.  And on that note of rather amazing productive community action I have to go drive DJ Th'Elf to the club.
   <zilchmeister>   Merticus, the feedback on the whole has been much the same as what could be expected from webmasters.
   <zilchmeister>   i.e. I get people asking the same questions over and over regardless of my having answered them in videos.
   <Ravena_>   That's because people are stupid Zilchy.
   <Merticus>   So do you feel like you are accomplishing anything with the videos?  Overall?
   <zilchmeister>   True
   <zilchmeister>   Merticus, yes I do feel like there's some accomplishment.
   <zilchmeister>   As it goes, I get mixed reactions from overwhelmingly positive to "grow up, tool."
   <zilchmeister>   But as for making a difference, yes I do feel that that is the case.
   <M_Belanger>   Let's actually get these done. I'm sort of excited.
   <M_Belanger>   ::waves::
   <Gabrielx>   Let's see if we can do them without killing one another ;p
   <Merticus>   Announcements:  TWILIGHT III will be held in Seattle, WA on September 26-28, 2008.  DragonCon - Atlanta, GA is August 29 – Sept. 1, 2008.  Vampternoon Tea (Mary Cassat Tea Room - Rittenhouse Hotel) is August 30, 2008 in Philadelphia, PA – before Dracula’s Ball.
   <Merticus>   Any other reminders?
   <AcrophobicPixie>   Black Swan Haven (BSH) meetup is next August ‘09 at Otakon in Baltimore, MD.
   <Merticus>   Thank you all for coming!
   <Merticus>   <<<<<<END MEETING LOG>>>>>>